Brexit Oven Ready Deal burnt to a crisp

BFC_BFC_BFC said:
No, that isn’t the point.... Well not my point, at least.

If you can’t even have a straightforward discussion with me and accurately reflect my expressed opinion, how are you to be trusted to discuss this subject (given your obvious bias) in a balanced way?

Drop your political allegiance and what you are told to think for a minute and try focusing on the facts.
Click to expand...

Throughout this discussion you have tried to justify the government's strategy of threatening to break international law in order to win concessions from the EU.
I think that this is a reasonable summary of your position, please correct me if I am wrong.

As for political allegiance, many supporters of the government are unhappy about this as well (see below). This isn't about scoring party political points, it's about the credibility of our government in the future.
inews.co.uk

Theresa May leads Tory rebellion over moves to dilute Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

Boris Johnson is being warned that his strategy would harm Britain on the global stage
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Throughout this discussion you have tried to justify the government's strategy of threatening to break international law in order to win concessions from the EU.
I think that this is a reasonable summary of your position, please correct me if I am wrong.

As for political allegiance, many supporters of the government are unhappy about this as well (see below). This isn't about scoring party political points, it's about the credibility of our government in the future.
inews.co.uk

Theresa May leads Tory rebellion over moves to dilute Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

Boris Johnson is being warned that his strategy would harm Britain on the global stage
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
Click to expand...

No I haven’t tried to justify the government's strategy of threatening to break international law in order to win concessions from the EU. So no, that’s definitely not a reasonable summary of my position at all.

What I have said is that we are still involved in a negotiation and to that extent it is reasonable to explore and employ any legitimate means to progress negotiations to our advantage.

Not only that, but the issues the government is seeking to nail down through legislation potentially remain unresolved.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
No I haven’t tried to justify the government's strategy of threatening to break international law in order to win concessions from the EU. So no, that’s definitely not a reasonable summary of my position at all.

What I have said is that we are still involved in a negotiation and to that extent it is reasonable to explore and employ any legitimate means to progress negotiations to our advantage.

Not only that, but the issues the government is seeking to nail down through legislation potentially remain unresolved.
Click to expand...
The people who have seen the detail are the NI Secretary who says it's in breach of international law, and the Perm Sec of the Govt Legal Department who has resigned over it. Seems pretty clear to me about whether it's gone too far.
 
Wizaard said:
The people who have seen the detail are the NI Secretary who says it's in breach of international law, and the Perm Sec of the Govt Legal Department who has resigned over it. Seems pretty clear to me about whether it's gone too far.
Click to expand...
The NI secretary was quite specific in what he said and the above is far from a complete representation of his comments.

Resignations over disagreements in public office happen all the time. It’s clearly a contentious issue.
 
Wizaard said:
The people who have seen the detail are the NI Secretary who says it's in breach of international law, and the Perm Sec of the Govt Legal Department who has resigned over it. Seems pretty clear to me about whether it's gone too far.
Click to expand...

The Attorney General apparently disagrees with you.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
No I haven’t tried to justify the government's strategy of threatening to break international law in order to win concessions from the EU. So no, that’s definitely not a reasonable summary of my position at all.

Yours at 1.25pm yesterday:
The important thing is the deal (or not) that eventually is agreed. The way we get there is largely irrelevant. One thing is for certain, playing by the ‘rules’ is all very predictable and unlikely to gain any initiative.

What I have said is that we are still involved in a negotiation and to that extent it is reasonable to explore and employ any legitimate means to progress negotiations to our advantage.

Yours at 1.45pm yesterday:
If you’re not pushing the legal boundaries and stretching the realms of acceptability, then you’re not going to get the best deal.
Click to expand...
You seem to have this notion that negotiations should all be about underhand tactics and subverting the law. It isn't.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
What I have said is that we are still involved in a negotiation and to that extent it is reasonable to explore and employ any legitimate means to progress negotiations to our advantage.
Click to expand...

This is the point.
Threatening to break existing agreements and international law is not a legitimate bargaining tactic.
It looks very much like you are trying to justify it.
How can the government expect it's citizens to uphold the rule of law when it will not do the same thing on an international level.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
What... Like threatening to prevent food trade between the UK and NI, if you don’t bend to the will of the EU?
Click to expand...
And you’re satisfied the supposed “threat” (reported in the ever reliable Sun newspaper) wasn’t Fake News are you? A bit like “straight bananas” and “banning black bin bags”.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
And you’re satisfied the supposed “threat” (reported in the ever reliable Sun newspaper) wasn’t Fake News are you? A bit like “straight bananas” and “banning black bin bags”.
Click to expand...
I’m satisfied that Barnier will use some pretty nefarious tactics in order to bully the U.K. into bending to his will and I’m happy that the UK takes whatever action is deemed necessary to ensure that the agreement falls in line with our expectations and in doing so prevent Barnier from misusing the terms of an agreement made in good faith to apply pressure on the U.K.
 
So the Internal Market Bill provides for
  • No new checks on the movement of goods from N Ireland to Great Britain
  • Power for the UK to disapply rules relating to the movement of goods if no EU trade deal
  • Power to override previously agreed obligations on state aid for businesses
Boris says the amendments are necessary to ensure the integrity of the UK internal market. What he means is this is a final warning to Europe to up its game and negotiate seriously with the UK so that none of these proposals is needed.
 
Barnier is just a middleman and a Frenchie to boot. Picked for his intransigence, stature and good hair to look impressive. De Gaulle Mk2 ( Non !). But he does what he is told. The real power lies with the President of the Commission and the Council of Ministers. Sadly, Bozo’s threatening behaviour to renege on aspects of the WA might lose us valuable allies on the Council who might have otherwise treated us better.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
So the Internal Market Bill provides for
  • No new checks on the movement of goods from N Ireland to Great Britain
  • Power for the UK to disapply rules relating to the movement of goods if no EU trade deal
  • Power to override previously agreed obligations on state aid for businesses
Boris says the amendments are necessary to ensure the integrity of the UK internal market. What he means is this is a final warning to Europe to up its game and negotiate seriously with the UK so that none of these proposals is needed.
Click to expand...
He’s very Butch isn’t he.
 
Archibald Knox said:
Barnier is just a middleman and a Frenchie to boot. Picked for his intransigence, stature and good hair to look impressive. De Gaulle Mk2 ( Non !). But he does what he is told. The real power lies with the President of the Commission and the Council of Ministers. Sadly, Bozo’s threatening behaviour to renege on aspects of the WA might lose us valuable allies on the Council who might have otherwise treated us better.
Click to expand...
I think they will be more than well aware that the EU haven’t exactly played the game themselves and they’ll recognise the UK stance for what it is. A perfectly reasonable counter-measure, in the face of their own dirty tricks.

The EU haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory in acting like some kind of spurned religious cult.
 
Last edited:
1966_and_all_that said:
I could guarantee you'd come back with that. You know what you've posted, work it out for yourself.
Click to expand...
I know exactly what I have posted...I’m not entirely convinced you do. My impression is that you seem to be under the impression, I’ve suggested “anything goes” in a negotiation. I haven’t !
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Lol... His about instead of inventing your own version of my position, you just focus on my response?

That way, we can have a two way discussion, rather than a dance.
Click to expand...
I think you're self-obsessed to the point that you choose not to understand important points that are made to you by other posters, choose to ignore logic and keep pushing for replies that are not needed.
I'm sorry but I think this has gone beyond the point of the debate.
 
1966, unlike you, I have no particular political affiliation or bias, so I feel I can look at this situation objectively. In terms of my position on Brexit itself, I voted remain, but my decision was marginal.

As I see this, you choose to interpret whatever information you get based on a predetermined position, so to that extent (much like our resident conspiracy theorists) you seem to suffer from confirmation bias.

I fully appreciate that you will relish the opportunity to jump on something like this and that’s fine, but please don’t try twisting that situation to a point that discredits other people for maintaining a bit of balance and an open mind, where yours is closed off.

You have no interest in even considering the alternative perspective, nor reflecting on the position that the EU has placed the UK in, by essentially angling the NI border issue to pressure the U.K. to come to heal.

If the EU wants to play those kind of underhand games and seeks to gain advantage through the inappropriate use of terms of the withdrawal agreement, then the U.K. is within our rights to cut off that particular line of attack. The intended purpose of the withdrawal agreement was not a stock for the EU to beat us into submission with and if that is what they choose to do, then they can rightly ‘Get to Fuck’....

As it is, this is likely to be largely brinkmanship and the EU knows full well (despite all the hullabaloo and rhetoric), that the U.K. is simply responding in kind!!
 
A spurned religious cult! I like it.
Certainly there is a very dogmatic quasi-religious aspect to Le Projet, in the guise of the four sacred freedoms. The freedoms of movement of goods, persons, services and capital. But no... there is a fifth freedom...
The freedom to fcuk off out of the EU and go it alone, absolutely independently, whatever the consequences. That’s the freedom the EU does appear not to recognise at all.
 
Various media reporting Starmer rejecting suggestions Labour want to rejoin the EU and says that it would be an electoral disaster in 2024. Finally he sees the light.👍🇬🇧
 
Last edited:
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
1966, unlike you, I have no particular political affiliation or bias, so I feel I can look at this situation objectively. In terms of my position on Brexit itself, I voted remain, but my decision was marginal.

As I see this, you choose to interpret whatever information you get based on a predetermined position, so to that extent (much like our resident conspiracy theorists) you seem to suffer from confirmation bias.

I fully appreciate that you will relish the opportunity to jump on something like this and that’s fine, but please don’t try twisting that situation to a point that discredits other people for maintaining a bit of balance and an open mind, where yours is closed off.

You have no interest in even considering the alternative perspective, nor reflecting on the position that the EU has placed the UK in, by essentially angling the NI border issue to pressure the U.K. to come to heal.

If the EU wants to play those kind of underhand games and seeks to gain advantage through the inappropriate use of terms of the withdrawal agreement, then the U.K. is within our rights to cut off that particular line of attack. The intended purpose of the withdrawal agreement was not a stock for the EU to beat us into submission with and if that is what they choose to do, then they can rightly ‘Get to Fuck’....

As it is, this is likely to be largely brinkmanship and the EU knows full well (despite all the hullabaloo and rhetoric), that the U.K. is simply responding in kind!!
Click to expand...
I think you're slightly unhinged.
 
Trammo said:
Various media reporting Starmer rejecting suggestions Labour want to rejoin the EU and that it would be an electoral disaster in 2024. Finally he sees the light.👍🇬🇧
Click to expand...
Starmer looks sharp and talks a lot. But scratch the surface and he says nothing. There's no substance and no alternative solutions, just criticism.
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
Starmer looks sharp and talks a lot. But scratch the surface and he says nothing. There's no substance and no alternative solutions, just criticism.
Click to expand...

Peston put that point to Angela Rayner last night, asking why at PMQs Keir barely raised the subject of the Internal Market Bill. As Peston speculated, maybe that's because people don't seem all that bothered about the new legislation offending the EU. The perception of the UK public is that the EU is not playing with a straight bat and is blocking a deal.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Peston put that point to Angela Rayner last night, asking why at PMQs Keir barely raised the subject of the Internal Market Bill. As Peston speculated, maybe that's because people don't seem all that bothered about the new legislation offending the EU. The perception of the UK public is that the EU is not playing with a straight bat and is blocking a deal.
Click to expand...
Starmer strikes me as a Labour version of David Cameron. He'll sway with public opinion rather than his own convictions. And he's obviously using the tactic 'if I say nothing, I can't hang myself'. Very disappointing as I expected more from him.
 
Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap


Anything to add??
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap


Anything to add??
Click to expand...
Yes. They're both crap 😆
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap
No Labour are Crap
No the Tories are Crap


Anything to add??
Click to expand...
Lib Dems are crap
 
Starmer is playing a long game. It’s a 4+ year campaign given the current Tory majority. Better politically to keep the buffoon in place as PM lurching from crisis to catastrophe than risking him being replaced by somebody competent. Obviously, not so good for the country and its people who are going to get hurt by this unprincipled Govt.

Labour still needs to work away from the perception that they supported a 2nd referendum to overturn Brexit because that has been suggested cost them support in those NE and Midlands poorer and marginalised constituencies. And internal rifts over overall direction need to be healed, along with image projection in the right-wing media.

Brexit is still the single dominating political issue, if the CV is regarded as an uncontrollable “Act of God” as many seem to do. But, even JC could not have done worse, and I think people are going to realise this the longer Bozo the buffoon appears on the TV. An effective opposition is a very important aspect of British democracy.
 
Last edited:
Justageordie said:
Can't agree more do you think Johnson will Last till January?
Click to expand...
I’m sure he will.

Unless he resigns the only people in a position to remove him at present are the Tory Party. While there’s a fair bit of discontent they are a long way from changing leaders.

Ask me again in about six months time.
 
The Labour party shouldn't give a toss re Brexit it's done it's finished ,let the lying twats sort breaking the law out themselves why should we bail them out .let them implode. sitting on the fence is peachy for this one
Take care T
 
Mexboroseasider said:
The latest polls (after the exam fiasco) seem to show the gap between Labour and Tories has closed and they are now equal.
Click to expand...
The state of the opinion polls don't make any difference to the fact that I've been disappointed with Starmer. He needs to up his game considerably in my opinion. He's bland, talks a lot but says nothing and has a negative vibe about him, where he criticises a lot but offers no alternative. I just can't take to him so far.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Labour has nothing to say.
Click to expand...

I don`t think that is strictly true.

Labour have played their part in forcing the government to reconsider their actions on quite a few occasions - hence the ridiculous amount of U-turns the government have made in such a relatively short time.

The summer school meals fiasco being a case in point where Marcus Rashford and Labour pressured the government successfully to ensure vulnerable children were fed through the summer when schools were closed...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top