We actually played ok

Phil_bfc deux

Phil_bfc deux

Well-known member
Well... as well as we could do given the bizarre lob sided 442 against a team who play 3 at the back

Maybe the thinking from Critchley was having JJ, Lavery and Yates pressing their back 3

And to be fair it worked ok for the first 30 mins or so

Looked to me like they changed their system and we didn't react thus getting overrun in midfield

Again...

Can't blame the players if the manager sets up one way and doesn’t react when they change things

I see Keogh is getting stick again, no idea why

He was probably our best defender on the night

Garbutt at fault for the first, Maxwell the 2nd and Expo the 3rd

But again it all comes down to giving the players the best chance to win a game

And like Coventry the manager got it wrong

Its a tough league this and the cruel facts are that the majority of teams simply have better players than us, i still dont think we did enough in the window

To get results we have to be 100% at it and tactically sharper than our opposition

And tonight in the second half we weren't
 
Some good points here but i wouldn't lay it at Critch's door. Players need to step up too and for one reason or another a few weren't quite on it last night. That five or ten percent can make all the difference against committed opponents like last night's.
 
Mark_GT said:
Some good points here but i wouldn't lay it at Critch's door. Players need to step up too and for one reason or another a few weren't quite on it last night. That five or ten percent can make all the difference against committed opponents like last night's.
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I disagree

It was completely at the managers door

What chance did our midfield 2 have against their 5 and it was 5 at times as we basically had a line of 4 upfront most of the game

And just played long balls to them that came right back to us

They changed shape and dominated midfield in the second half and we did nothing to counter that

All on the manager I'm afraid
 
Adams Kebab said:
John Jules is a left midfielder now 🤷🏻‍♂️

Stewart is massive for us. Hope he can stay fit.
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Yeah it was Sunday league stuff

If we have to play 442 as it appears then at least play someone on that side who can play there

When i saw the team it worried me to be honest and i said as much to anyone who would listen before the game

Even more bizarre was that he didn't try and change shape
 
Phil, the only bit you got right was that we played ok. When I read the headline I thought that I might end up agreeing with you , but then you spoiled it with the utter tripe that followed . You’ve never rated this head coach and you can’t leave it alone. Why do you bother if all you want to do is turn your own positive (headline) into pure doom an gloom , I just don’t get it from a long term supporter like yourself.
 
Fatboy said:
Phil, the only bit you got right was that we played ok. When I read the headline I thought that I might end up agreeing with you , but then you spoiled it with the utter tripe that followed . You’ve never rated this head coach and you can’t leave it alone. Why do you bother if all you want to do is turn your own positive (headline) into pure doom an gloom , I just don’t get it from a long term supporter like yourself.
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Its completely irrelevant if i rated the manager or not

I'm talking about last night

I gave us credit against Fulham but last night we didn't react to what they did to control possession

First half we pressed the second ball from their defence and we created chances from it

Once they changed and beat the press we were awful and created next to nothing

Thats how i saw it ...
 
They were better than us , tactically and standard of players, let’s face facts. However we are not a long way off, 1-3 would’ve been fair ... l would be much more concerned if we weren’t creating anything, we are, massively disappointed last night but not down this morning .
 
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune said:
Would Kaikai have helped?

sorry, couldn’t resist 😉
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Probably mate

We don't create many chances or get into many goal scoring positions

And when we do our final ball is really poor

Kaikai for all his weaknesses could pick a pass and create things

Bowler and John Jules were wasteful in that first half last night, if we had scored when we were on top in that first 25 mins i think we could have won the game
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Its completely irrelevant if i rated the manager or not

I'm talking about last night

I gave us credit against Fulham but last night we didn't react to what they did to control possession

First half we pressed the second ball from their defence and we created chances from it

Once they changed and beat the press we were awful and created next to nothing

Thats how i saw it ...
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Pretty fair assessment Pip. As you say, it's the lopsided, unbalanced set up that causes problems. Good in little patterns and when you can pinch and break fast (something they were wise to with their early fouls), but we lacked fluency and cohesion overall that ultimately brought a lot of 'back to front' balls that were hopeful rather than penetrating.

Throughout his tenure, Critch has suffered from trying to be too clever. Sometimes you just have to get back to basics. As you say, if you want 4 across the middle, then use players that suit that function. Not ones that are being told 'hold width, but not too much width and come inside to the pocket whilst also holding width'.

And I agree regarding scoring first. Would have made a big difference.
 
when it came to defending his man, Keogh was fine. But he’s so one footed him being played on the left at CB is asking for trouble when he’s on the ball, I don’t know who’s more nervous when he’s got it, him or me. While the third goal was Marvin’s fault mostly, it did start with Keogh not having a passing option because of his positioning - and probably also because we didn’t have a man coming deep in midfield to command the ball
 
If we are to persist with 4-4-2 we need a number 10 on the pitch this mix of JJ, Lavery and Yates in a 2 doesn't work.
They can't hold the ball up or find a pass to their partner.
 
Mark_GT said:
Some good points here but i wouldn't lay it at Critch's door. Players need to step up too and for one reason or another a few weren't quite on it last night. That five or ten percent can make all the difference against committed opponents like last night's.
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I’am not sure some of our players can step after 7/8 games it’s clear to see a few of our players are really struggling to cope with life in the championship Yates being a prime example Garbutt another one and so to CJ and TJJ looks like he should have gone to a L 1/2 club for a season first as championship looks a little ahead of him right now.
Worrying times ahead methinks as can’t see what the answer is now the transfer window is shut.
 
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straightatthewall said:
Pretty fair assessment Pip. As you say, it's the lopsided, unbalanced set up that causes problems. Good in little patterns and when you can pinch and break fast (something they were wise to with their early fouls), but we lacked fluency and cohesion overall that ultimately brought a lot of 'back to front' balls that were hopeful rather than penetrating.

Throughout his tenure, Critch has suffered from trying to be too clever. Sometimes you just have to get back to basics. As you say, if you want 4 across the middle, then use players that suit that function. Not ones that are being told 'hold width, but not too much width and come inside to the pocket whilst also holding width'.

And I agree regarding scoring first. Would have made a big difference.
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Yep good point about the width

Its a modern thing that they obviously get told at coach school

Its fine if we have the ball, not so great if we are outnumbered in the middle
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Yep good point about the width

Its a modern thing that they obviously get told at coach school

Its fine if we have the ball, not so great if we are outnumbered in the middle
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Width is a modern thing? Wingers used to be told to make sure they were getting chalk on their boots at all times and hug the touchlines. That changed 15 years ago with players cutting inside and swapping flanks to have a right sided player on the left.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Well... as well as we could do given the bizarre lob sided 442 against a team who play 3 at the back

Maybe the thinking from Critchley was having JJ, Lavery and Yates pressing their back 3

And to be fair it worked ok for the first 30 mins or so

Looked to me like they changed their system and we didn't react thus getting overrun in midfield

Again...

Can't blame the players if the manager sets up one way and doesn’t react when they change things

I see Keogh is getting stick again, no idea why

He was probably our best defender on the night

Garbutt at fault for the first, Maxwell the 2nd and Expo the 3rd

But again it all comes down to giving the players the best chance to win a game

And like Coventry the manager got it wrong

Its a tough league this and the cruel facts are that the majority of teams simply have better players than us, i still dont think we did enough in the window

To get results we have to be 100% at it and tactically sharper than our opposition

And tonight in the second half we weren't
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Well bugger me, I agree with most of that Phil 😁

Huddersfield changed it and we couldn't cope. I thought they were as strong and we were weak in the second half.

I wish you'd post your team and strategy pre-game though and follow it up with a post match analysis. That way we'd be able to delete the hindsight manager strategy much used on footy forums!!!
 
20togo said:
agree with most of o/p although I'd say last night was far more 4-2-4 than 4-4-2. And because of that, yep blame firmly at the managers door.
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It was weird

It was like Bowler was playing as a wide right player but JJ, Lavery and Yates playing as a front 3 for most of the match .Really unbalanced and then when it looked like a 424 at times it gave the midfield 2 no chance at all to compete
 
Going Up the Pool said:
Well bugger me, I agree with most of that Phil 😁

Huddersfield changed it and we couldn't cope. I thought they were as strong and we were weak in the second half.

I wish you'd post your team and strategy pre-game though and follow it up with a post match analysis. That way we'd be able to delete the hindsight manager strategy much used on footy forums!!!
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I'm not a fan of 442 with inverted wide men to be honest

Even less so when one of them is completely out of position
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
It was weird

It was like Bowler was playing as a wide right player but JJ, Lavery and Yates playing as a front 3 for most of the match .Really unbalanced and then when it looked like a 424 at times it gave the midfield 2 no chance at all to compete
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Even the swillheads on the Armfield balcony had spotted this before the game. Must have been a reason to hold off Keshi following Saturday’s superb performance.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Yep and we play inverted wide men really wide with only 2 centre mids hence getting overrun week in week out
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The Coventry game was a good example of this - they had bags of space and dominated the midfield. Midfield set-up is definitely our weak point at the moment - I thought similar when I saw how Huddersfield were lining up last night. We need to match like for like or adapt from the 4-4-2 that doesn't work for us.
Edit to add - playing three at the back, then having Garbutt and Gabriel pushing up would seem a better option, with 2 in midfield and two up front would make us more solid, 3-4-2-1
 
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Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
The Coventry game was a good example of this - they had bags of space and dominated the midfield. Midfield set-up is definitely our weak point at the moment - I thought similar when I saw how Huddersfield were lining up last night. We need to match like for like or adapt from the 4-4-2 that doesn't work for us.
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Yeah i think its bizarre that Critchley bangs on about a possession based style but we don't set up to play that way

We are like a smaller version of Burnley 442 week in week out ...
 
foggy said:
Width is a modern thing? Wingers used to be told to make sure they were getting chalk on their boots at all times and hug the touchlines. That changed 15 years ago with players cutting inside and swapping flanks to have a right sided player on the left.
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It's more about how 'width' is created and deployed. Do you pull your 'wide' men inside and let the full backs bomb on to create width or are your wide players working in a more traditional way to hold width. Sometimes you get the feeling that players (not just ours) are being told to do a bit of everything and unless that player is really used to the role and understands their spaces on the pitch then it can lead to players not knowing whether to stick or twist and ending up in no-mans land.
 
Some good points, but once again, Phil’s personal agenda invalidates some of what he says.

He has criticised this manager at every opportunity from the moment he walked in the door, and the fact he continues to do reiterate his desperation to be proven right.

How can the blame solely lie at the managers door when the players completely switched off for 15 mins and threw the game away? Critch should always take some responsibility, and he makes mistakes, but Phil always over does it with his criticism of the manager. Every single time
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Well... as well as we could do given the bizarre lob sided 442 against a team who play 3 at the back

Maybe the thinking from Critchley was having JJ, Lavery and Yates pressing their back 3

And to be fair it worked ok for the first 30 mins or so

Looked to me like they changed their system and we didn't react thus getting overrun in midfield

Again...

Can't blame the players if the manager sets up one way and doesn’t react when they change things

I see Keogh is getting stick again, no idea why

He was probably our best defender on the night

Garbutt at fault for the first, Maxwell the 2nd and Expo the 3rd

But again it all comes down to giving the players the best chance to win a game

And like Coventry the manager got it wrong

Its a tough league this and the cruel facts are that the majority of teams simply have better players than us, i still dont think we did enough in the window

To get results we have to be 100% at it and tactically sharper than our opposition

And tonight in the second half we weren't
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cant blame garbutt he slipped tjj ran into a blind alley should of passed sooner for first goal in prem with var think we would of got a free kick for obstruction on keeper and they had the rub of the green with the ekpo goal.
critch needs to have plans ready for when opposition change tactics thats where you need a midfielder or defender as captain not a keeper
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
It was weird

It was like Bowler was playing as a wide right player but JJ, Lavery and Yates playing as a front 3 for most of the match .Really unbalanced and then when it looked like a 424 at times it gave the midfield 2 no chance at all to compete
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I thought it was a 424 also. Irrespective of the formation Critch might have attached to it, it was obvious that Lavery, Yates, TJJ and Bowler would be at the front leaving Dougall and Wintle as the midfield. It was a team Holloway would have approved of and I admit I was pleased before kick-off seeing us go for the win.

With hindsight, however, it was too ambitious, and we were perhaps a bit giddy after the Fulham win. Just like last year when Critch tried to play his favourite 433, but had to admit it wasn't working, maybe it's time to shore up midfield with 442 or 451. We can't afford to go with that front four again.

This was the team:
1631703853512.png
 
Shiggy said:
Some good points, but once again, Phil’s personal agenda invalidates some of what he says.

He has criticised this manager at every opportunity from the moment he walked in the door, and the fact he continues to do reiterate his desperation to be proven right.

How can the blame solely lie at the managers door when the players completely switched off for 15 mins and threw the game away? Critch should always take some responsibility, and he makes mistakes, but Phil always over does it with his criticism of the manager. Every single time
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Nonsense ...

The only agenda i have is wanting the best for the football club, be it winning football matches, having more fans in the ground or anything else

I make no apology for that
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Nonsense ...

The only agenda i have is wanting the best for the football club, be it winning football matches, having more fans in the ground or anything else

I make no apology for that
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But you never strike the balance. Last night the manager was at fault, but so were the players, more so I’d say. To say ‘can’t blame the players’ is just way off the mark imo.
 
Shiggy said:
But you never strike the balance. Last night the manager was at fault, but so were the players, more so I’d say. To say ‘can’t blame the players’ is just way off the mark imo.
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I've stated that the goals were all individual mistakes

However i firmly believe the manager was at fault tactically and has been several times this season

What worries me is his apparent stubbornness to change formations and systems and his inability to be more flexible during the games

Huddersfield changed shape and tactics and won the game because of it

At half time we were bang in that match, they changed and won at a canter we kept doing the same thing again and again
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Yeah i think its bizarre that Critchley bangs on about a possession based style but we don't set up to play that way

We are like a smaller version of Burnley 442 week in week out ...
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Yep I dont get this 'we want to control the game' possession style, i absolute love that style but have seen nothing of setting up optimally to play it in any game.

We look clueless at it at times, its not like were set up and the players just aren't good enough, but you can see whats trying to happen, I can't see it.

I also don't see Critch showing them from the sides, no you be there pass here etc.

Surely in training you work on it, attack against defence and say you pass here and have players stood here, 1 touch pass and he can then spread it to a forward facing player or whatever.

Were a team who doesn't seem to have an effective style, don't create many chances for our forwards because of this, players hesitant, the passing too slow at times, poor ball, chance gone.

A worry is I think the Nobbers play 3 at the back, if we set up like we have been doing I can see us being similarly outplayed in the middle which is asking for trouble.

Teams will press us at the back and we have to show more than we did with the side to side then launching it crap.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
I'm not a fan of 442 with inverted wide men to be honest

Even less so when one of them is completely out of position
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Now I do agree fully with this. but in a 442, I like to see a big man little man combo, with proper wingers on their natural side.
 
A couple of points from the above,

Yes Garbs slipped. Was that anything to do with watering the pitch again at half time. I was worried about this after Cov. I get that it helps the ball move quicker over the surface in a passing game, but is it really going to make that much difference at the expense of losing your footing in a crucial area?

Our kickoffs / restarts. For a team that is obviously trying to base itself on ball retention and possession, why do we go long straight from kickoff? Last night we weren't even going wide with it, it was straight down the middle and their tall CH was eating everything.
 
CGP1 said:
A couple of points from the above,

Yes Garbs slipped. Was that anything to do with watering the pitch again at half time. I was worried about this after Cov. I get that it helps the ball move quicker over the surface in a passing game, but is it really going to make that much difference at the expense of losing your footing in a crucial area?

Our kickoffs / restarts. For a team that is obviously trying to base itself on ball retention and possession, why do we go long straight from kickoff? Last night we weren't even going wide with it, it was straight down the middle and their tall CH was eating everything.
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"For a team that is obviously trying to base itself on ball retention and possession"

I haven't seen any evidence at all on that point

We haven't dominated one single league game this season
 
We can talk about systems until the cows come home. Let’s not forget Huddersfield’s central midfielders (Hogg, with two full seasons in the Premier league, and the £10m rated O’ Brien) are better players than an out of sorts Dougall and Wintle who hadn’t played at this level before last week.
 
Fatboy said:
Now I do agree fully with this. but in a 442, I like to see a big man little man combo, with proper wingers on their natural side.
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Bowler, Mitchell and CJ are all left footed aren't they?

I do agree though how many times do we see poor balls into the box because the inverted winger is using their weak foot
 
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To be fair to the op we all felt result was partially down to errors but mainly how the team was set up, changing the winning side and how he didn't react to changes made by their manager. We probably would have lost anyway but no plan B. Please also stop zonal marking every fan around us in South were asking why we left 5 players unmarked at the corner.
 
L’étranger said:
We can talk about systems until the cows come home. Let’s not forget Huddersfield’s central midfielders (Hogg, with two full seasons in the Premier league, and the £10m rated O’ Brien) are better players than an out of sorts Dougall and Wintle who hadn’t played at this level before last week.
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Hogg is 32 and didn't break sweat in the second half

Says more about us then them to be honest
 
I've got to agree with most of what has been said on this thread.
We are all PL standard managers after the event though, aren't we?
A couple of things to comment on where I disagree. We didn't really play with 2 wingers. We just had Bowler stuck out on the right getting very little of the ball and marked by two or three players. We didn't take advantage of that. Personally I would have given Bowler to the freedom to wander. At least that would have dragged players out of position rather than have their LCB and LWB on his case all night. We are rather one dimensional in that respect.
TJJ is this seasons Kakai. Again his best position is one where he is unshackled.
You can't have 2 players in that luxury position though.
I can understand why Keshi and Stewart were left out last night but we are clearly a better team with them in the starting eleven.
I don't think Yates and Lavery up front works. Start one or the other with the instruction to run themselves into the ground for 60 mins then swap.
Keogh did OK last night but he's not our 2nd best CB and having a rightie at LCB can cause problems.
Came away bitterly disappointed but on reflection it was fine margins and not a complete disaster and we should have had a penalty.
 
I think it’s a touch unfair to blame Garbutt for the first and Ek for the third. Yes Garbutt dived in and missed but there was two other players involved after that and the finish was sublime. As for Ek yes you could argue he could of just put it into touch but even after the ricochet which landed kindly there was another player involved after Maxi saved it, and he also absolutely buried it. I’ll go along with blaming Maxi for the second as for me he should been stronger with the guy stood in front of him.
 
Insider said:
I've got to agree with most of what has been said on this thread.
We are all PL standard managers after the event though, aren't we?
A couple of things to comment on where I disagree. We didn't really play with 2 wingers. We just had Bowler stuck out on the right getting very little of the ball and marked by two or three players. We didn't take advantage of that. Personally I would have given Bowler to the freedom to wander. At least that would have dragged players out of position rather than have their LCB and LWB on his case all night. We are rather one dimensional in that respect.
TJJ is this seasons Kakai. Again his best position is one where he is unshackled.
You can't have 2 players in that luxury position though.
I can understand why Keshi and Stewart were left out last night but we are clearly a better team with them in the starting eleven.
I don't think Yates and Lavery up front works. Start one or the other with the instruction to run themselves into the ground for 60 mins then swap.
Keogh did OK last night but he's not our 2nd best CB and having a rightie at LCB can cause problems.
Came away bitterly disappointed but on reflection it was fine margins and not a complete disaster and we should have had a penalty.
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Yeah thats about 3 pens at home we should have had this season

As for Keogh he's still probably our best central defender, don't understand your comment on him
 
I think there's a wider point with Garbutt; irrespective of whether he was at fault for the goal, he's just not a good defender. His qualities lie with his left foot and delivery. If he's not providing good set-pieces and insightful passing then we'd be as well with Husband, James or Mitchell (when fit) at left back as all 3 can defend better.

I'd also add that I've seen several references to an 'out of sorts' Jerry or Dougall. Both are working as hard as they ever did, but they're going to struggle to be as effective without a stronger base supporting them. In Jerry's case it's obvious he's better all round when he has a bigger player near him (Madine or Simms) and Dougall needs the sort of player who'll pick up his tackles and interceptions and recycles the ball (Stewart or Ward). The latter is never going to find it easier if he's trying to cover the ground against 3 opposition players.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Yeah thats about 3 pens at home we should have had this season

As for Keogh he's still probably our best central defender, don't understand your comment on him
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I just disagree with you.
He's no pace.
His use of the ball is poor from the point of view of speed of distribution and placement of pass. (90% of his passes are square balls to the other CB).
He's to static and rarely moves up the pitch.
Even with Eky's inexperience he's a far better player and Hubby fits in better on the left.
Gretarsson will hopefully develop as the season progresses.
 
straightatthewall said:
I think there's a wider point with Garbutt; irrespective of whether he was at fault for the goal, he's just not a good defender. His qualities lie with his left foot and delivery. If he's not providing good set-pieces and insightful passing then we'd be as well with Husband, James or Mitchell (when fit) at left back as all 3 can defend better.

I'd also add that I've seen several references to an 'out of sorts' Jerry or Dougall. Both are working as hard as they ever did, but they're going to struggle to be as effective without a stronger base supporting them. In Jerry's case it's obvious he's better all round when he has a bigger player near him (Madine or Simms) and Dougall needs the sort of player who'll pick up his tackles and interceptions and recycles the ball (Stewart or Ward). The latter is never going to find it easier if he's trying to cover the ground against 3 opposition players.
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Good points. I'd rest Garbutt for Husband, who is just a much stronger defender and also has pace to support Keogh. We did set up light in midfield lat night but good players should be able to adapt, and conceding a little at least to Phil's point Critch could have made an earlier tactical change. It also doesn't help to have so many misplaced short passes. We'll be better on Saturday.
 
Insider said:
I just disagree with you.
He's no pace.
His use of the ball is poor from the point of view of speed of distribution and placement of pass. (90% of his passes are square balls to the other CB).
He's to static and rarely moves up the pitch.
Even with Eky's inexperience he's a far better player and Hubby fits in better on the left.
Gretarsson will hopefully develop as the season progresses.
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Thats fine disagree all you want

Gretarsson is injury prone, Husband is a left back and Expo is inexperienced

So Keogh is still our best option

I think so, so does the manager 🤔
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Thats fine disagree all you want

Gretarsson is injury prone, Husband is a left back and Expo is inexperienced

So Keogh is still our best option

I think so, so does the manager 🤔
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That's a brilliant response from the poster who has established his position on the Board with his observations on the Mangers weaknesses in defending his argument that Keogh is our best defender by saying he must be right because the Manager agrees with him 😲.
Tremendous batting that Young Phil. 😁
 
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