Three Observations from Bolton that havent really been mentioned

[Raging_Bull]

You did what you did as a manager and that’s what suited you mate. I’m not going to argue with that and at the end of the day you achieved success playing the game you wanted to play it.

Critchley along with the overwhelming majority of professional Football Managers choose to do something different. They have access to much more information and they use that to inform their choices (rightly or wrongly). Given the choice I’d always favour that detailed data over your anecdotal evidence and it’s understandable that a pro-manager (with so much riding on these decisions) would also favour that too.

What I do find a bit strange about this kind of thing though is that people are so resistant to information that advances their understanding.

It just seems daft to me… I appreciate that is counterintuitive and that poses all of us a mental conundrum, but once you know…you know.

Why would you then just ignore that information in favour of what basically amounts to ‘a hunch’…

The trouble with that is the tactics Critch is currently employing isn't working hence the fans frustrations, but no matter what any stats may tell a manager or coach, a small guy who cannot jump very high is as much use to you as a chocolate fireguard at defending corners at whatever level of football you are playing, so you may as well stick him up the park and make the opponents have to mark him, and if he happens to be quick as Dembele is, they have a problem so need to double up on him.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

The trouble with that is the tactics Critch is currently employing isn't working hence the fans frustrations, but no matter what any stats may tell a manager or coach, a small guy who cannot jump very high is as much use to you as a chocolate fireguard at defending corners at whatever level of football you are playing, so you may as well stick him up the park and make the opponents have to mark him, and if he happens to be quick as Dembele is, they have a problem so need to double up on him.

I’ve said a few times, Evatt experienced similar issues implementing the same system at Bolton. This season things are coming right for them. I do get the frustration right now, but like anything else worth having, sometimes you need to go through a bit of pain and have a bit of faith and patience in life.

The decision on how to play corners isn’t unique to Critchley though, it’s pretty much universal.

I don’t think it has much to do with a player’s height either. It’s about crowding the box and the phases of defending the corner.

So even in terms of clearing the lines etc.. It’s better to have everyone back, rather than sticking a man forward.

It is what it is tbh… As I say Sean Dyche explained it and then went though all of these consistent arguments… ‘he’s only small’ ‘he can’t head the ball’ etc.. etc.. with a fan who just wouldn’t have it…

Personally I don’t see the point in ignoring overwhelming evidence. That to me is just bloody mindedness. Understand people might find it goes against what they think… but once someone hands you a box of matches you don’t go back to rubbing two sticks together.

 

[BFCfan33]

I also used to leave my smaller player/players up the park at corners on the basis they'd be unlikely to win any aerial challenge in the box in any case.

I also always had a man on both posts as it narrowed down the width of the goal my keeper had to defend.

These players made plenty of clearances off the line and funny enough we rarely conceded at corners and when we did clear a corner we had players competing for the ball up the pitch and managed to get out most of the time.

Now Critch could argue that he is a professional and has the relevant coaching badges to prove it, but I would counter with I used to run teams when Critch was in nappies and the principals of football remain the same!!

Now that is what i call old school, in my day that happened but things have changed the only thing i could agree with in my opinion is get Hamilton out of the way at corners, he has a head like a 50p piece and couldn't tackle his grannie if she had the ball, if you notice when we have corners he is always the one to stay back to defend against quick breaks.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Now that is what i call old school, in my day that happened but things have changed the only thing i could agree with in my opinion is get Hamilton out of the way at corners, he has a head like a 50p piece and couldn't tackle his grannie if she had the ball, if you notice when we have corners he is always the one to stay back to defend against quick breaks.

This is just another example of how our own prejudice can colour our judgement. It’s just lazy assumptions about players.

In actual fact, CJ does very well defensively. He recovers well, wins a lot of tackles, wins his fair share of aerial duels etc..

 

[BFCfan33]

This is just another example of how our own prejudice can colour our judgement. It’s just lazy assumptions about players.

In actual fact, CJ does very well defensively. He recovers well, wins a lot of tackles, wins his fair share of aerial duels etc..

I have to say i do wonder what people see when they watch the games and as i always say everyone have their opinions and we are all correct, so i respect your opinions but saying CJ wins loads of tackles and wins his fair share of ariel duels is to be honest, you must have rose tinted CJ glasses on

 

[Fargo99]

Watching Chelsea v Man City on Sunday Thiago Silva scored a glancing header from a corner to make it 1-1, no defender on back stick for easy clearance , simple goal.
Zonal marking is kamikaze defending.

 

[BFCfan33]

I also used to leave my smaller player/players up the park at corners on the basis they'd be unlikely to win any aerial challenge in the box in any case.

I also always had a man on both posts as it narrowed down the width of the goal my keeper had to defend.

These players made plenty of clearances off the line and funny enough we rarely conceded at corners and when we did clear a corner we had players competing for the ball up the pitch and managed to get out most of the time.

Now Critch could argue that he is a professional and has the relevant coaching badges to prove it, but I would counter with I used to run teams when Critch was in nappies and the principals of football remain the same!!

Raging - May i ask at what level of football that was so i can understand the reasoning behind your comments.

 

[Raging_Bull]

Raging - May i ask at what level of football that was so i can understand the reasoning behind your comments.

Sure, I managed at North West Counties level and Sunday League over a period of 35 years, to be fair a lot of players who played for me had previously played professional football, however my reasoning as you put it is just my own experience and not me thinking I know more than a FL manager even though I've done more than my share of coaching modules over many years.

 

[Raging_Bull]

Watching Chelsea v Man City on Sunday Thiago Silva scored a glancing header from a corner to make it 1-1, no defender on back stick for easy clearance , simple goal.
Zonal marking is kamikaze defending.

You watch the FL and MOTD highlights each week and the amount of goals scored that would have been cleared by a defender on the post is simply huge.

It is irrelevant what level of football you play, you put a man on each post and those 8 yards of goal a keeper has to cover become a hell of a lot smaller.

 

[Satriale's Pork Store]

This is just another example of how our own prejudice can colour our judgement. It’s just lazy assumptions about players.

In actual fact, CJ does very well defensively. He recovers well, wins a lot of tackles, wins his fair share of aerial duels etc..

'Wins his fair share of aerial duels etc...'

Bfister, you know full well Friday is joke day!

 

[spudgun]

You watch the FL and MOTD highlights each week and the amount of goals scored that would have been cleared by a defender on the post is simply huge.

It is irrelevant what level of football you play, you put a man on each post and those 8 yards of goal a keeper has to cover become a hell of a lot smaller.

With respect to your experience RB, if you put two defenders on the posts at high level football, the attacking team will probably always play the corner short and make the defenders come off the posts anyway. Otherwise they are playing everyone onside. Back in the day it would work for you because teams would not work a corner like a Premier League team would now - a corner was nearly always delivered in at Sunday League level (as I remember!).

Most teams you see on telly will use a hybrid zonal/marking/blocking defence which is why everyone is needed back. Usually 3 or 4 are zonal marking, 3 or 4 or are marking/blocking and a the rest are guarding the possibilities on the edges of the penalty box. Even the smaller players are used as blockers, sometimes against centre-halves!

If you look at Liverpool say, the smaller fast players (like Salah) will be on the penalty area circle, and will be on the half way line in 3 to 4 seconds anyway if the goal keeper claims the ball. Dembele is a similar stature and quick so should be used in the same way perhaps.

There probably isn`t a great statistical gain in leaving a player up front at professional level.

Would be interesting to see a team try it though!

Once saw a team in the Northern Prem sometimes leave 3 up front for corners. They lost as I remember...

 

[BFCfan33]

Sure, I managed at North West Counties level and Sunday League over a period of 35 years, to be fair a lot of players who played for me had previously played professional football, however my reasoning as you put it is just my own experience and not me thinking I know more than a FL manager even though I've done more than my share of coaching modules over many years.

Coaching courses done them myself and i played pro football, i am not having a pop i just like to understand peoples logic and understand their thoughts, everyone's views are correct because that's what they believe and that's fine. i always like constructive discussions.

 

[BFCfan33]

Sure, I managed at North West Counties level and Sunday League over a period of 35 years, to be fair a lot of players who played for me had previously played professional football, however my reasoning as you put it is just my own experience and not me thinking I know more than a FL manager even though I've done more than my share of coaching modules over many years.

What teams did you manage in the Sunday league, i only ask because i played in the senior Sunday league when i was a kid many years back (43 of them to be precise) and to go over the old times is good

 

[Wizaard]

Why did no officials not see the assault by Charles on Norburn, clearly thumping Norburn on the ribs, resulting in long treatment early in first half.
Could have broke his ribs, certainty red, but oppositions never get red, just us?
The 4mins was ridiculous.
Lots of subs, injuries, time wasting notes by ref pointing to watch & a long goal celebration. Should have been double!
Bolton fans generally thought they played 12 men!!!

They had one booked for time-wasting, but time not added on. Bizarre

 

[basilexile]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

CJ and Dembele are hardly going to have much impact defending, so might as well drag three of theirs back.

 

[Raging_Bull]

What teams did you manage in the Sunday league, i only ask because i played in the senior Sunday league when i was a kid many years back (43 of them to be precise) and to go over the old times is good

Well if my maths is right you are talking about 1980, so the top team back then was Marklynn Motors who won the Lancashire Cup in 1979 and were perennial winners in that era along with teams like Warwick Southpool, Great Ecc and Highbury, my team started off in the lower leagues as Mardi Gras/Belle Vue and eventually took over as the top team from Marklynn, by then we were called Morleys (same team, different sponsor) and we took over as the top side from 1987.

 

[BFCfan33]

Well if my maths is right you are talking about 1980, so the top team back then was Marklynn Motors who won the Lancashire Cup in 1979 and were perennial winners in that era along with teams like Warwick Southpool, Great Ecc and Highbury, my team started off in the lower leagues as Mardi Gras/Belle Vue and eventually took over as the top team from Marklynn, by then we were called Morleys (same team, different sponsor) and we took over as the top side from 1987.

Nice one Raging thanks for your reply, your maths is very good give and take a few months, i played for Warwick Southpool when i was fourteen/fifteen with all the Wrens boys Gaz Robinson (bless him) the Gerrard brothers Vinny Kidd not to name a few and won a few trophies, so you will have had the likes of Keith Bowey, Jimmy Hall, Steve Trainor?, the Sunday league will never be like that again.

 

[SeasideKurt]

You did what you did as a manager and that’s what suited you mate. I’m not going to argue with that and at the end of the day you achieved success playing the game you wanted to play it.

Critchley along with the overwhelming majority of professional Football Managers choose to do something different. They have access to much more information and they use that to inform their choices (rightly or wrongly). Given the choice I’d always favour that detailed data over your anecdotal evidence and it’s understandable that a pro-manager (with so much riding on these decisions) would also favour that too.

What I do find a bit strange about this kind of thing though is that people are so resistant to information that advances their understanding.

It just seems daft to me… I appreciate that is counterintuitive and that poses all of us a mental conundrum, but once you know…you know.

Why would you then just ignore that information in favour of what basically amounts to ‘a hunch’…

1 - I don't believe the majority of managers do that.
2 - Where is the evidence that this is substantially proven to ensure you have more chance of defending your goal? Where's the report? What's the statistic? Is it 99%? 75% 55%? What is it? Because you're just writing long paragraphs but not saying anything other than, Critch is a professional innit. Oh and we conceded pretty much from a corner last night and multiple times this season. Thank god we had all 11 players back in the box.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

1 - I don't believe the majority of managers do that.
2 - Where is the evidence that this is substantially proven to ensure you have more chance of defending your goal? Where's the report? What's the statistic? Is it 99%? 75% 55%? What is it? Because you're just writing long paragraphs but not saying anything other than, Critch is a professional innit. Oh and we conceded pretty much from a corner last night and multiple times this season. Thank god we had all 11 players back in the box.

OK Kurt

 

[SeasideKurt]

OK Kurt

So what's the response then? You're so knowledgeable about football. You've made a sweeping comment about something but can't back it up?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

So what's the response then? You're so knowledgeable about football. You've made a sweeping comment about something but can't back it up?

It came up ages ago and I did link an explanation, but I can’t find it.

There’s a whole science behind attacking and defending corners. A lot of it is focused more on the second phase, the rebound zones (where the second ball ends up in the majority of cases) and individual roles and responsibilities in that phase.

In terms of counter attacks (for example) the percentage play might be to have a player like CJ (with pace) positioned on the edge of the box and covering an attacking player positioned to pick up the second ball as opposed to committing him to the half way line.

I don’t have access to the statistics and I’m not asking you to change your mind. I’m simply explaining the reasons why Critch, Pep and other so called ‘modern’ managers are not putting men on the half way line.

It’s up to you what you do with the information… if you choose not o believe it, that’s fine by me

 

[SeasideKurt]

It came up ages ago and I did link an explanation, but I can’t find it.

There’s a whole science behind attacking and defending corners. A lot of it is focused more on the second phase, the rebound zones (where the second ball ends up in the majority of cases) and individual roles and responsibilities in that phase.

In terms of counter attacks (for example) the percentage play might be to have a player like CJ (with pace) positioned on the edge of the box and covering an attacking player positioned to pick up the second ball as opposed to committing him to the half way line.

I don’t have access to the statistics and I’m not asking you to change your mind. I’m simply explaining the reasons why Critch, Pep and other so called ‘modern’ managers are not putting men on the half way line.

It’s up to you what you do with the information… if you choose not o believe it, that’s fine by me

I'm not asking you to change my mind, my point is around the factual nature of it and what percentages are we talking?

As you said, if CJ can sit on the edge of the box, he might as well be on the half way line.

 

[BFCfan33]

It came up ages ago and I did link an explanation, but I can’t find it.

There’s a whole science behind attacking and defending corners. A lot of it is focused more on the second phase, the rebound zones (where the second ball ends up in the majority of cases) and individual roles and responsibilities in that phase.

In terms of counter attacks (for example) the percentage play might be to have a player like CJ (with pace) positioned on the edge of the box and covering an attacking player positioned to pick up the second ball as opposed to committing him to the half way line.

I don’t have access to the statistics and I’m not asking you to change your mind. I’m simply explaining the reasons why Critch, Pep and other so called ‘modern’ managers are not putting men on the half way line.

It’s up to you what you do with the information… if you choose not o believe it, that’s fine by me

Are you a politician because they never answer the question asked either.

 

[Raging_Bull]

Nice one Raging thanks for your reply, your maths is very good give and take a few months, i played for Warwick Southpool when i was fourteen/fifteen with all the Wrens boys Gaz Robinson (bless him) the Gerrard brothers Vinny Kidd not to name a few and won a few trophies, so you will have had the likes of Keith Bowey, Jimmy Hall, Steve Trainor?, the Sunday league will never be like that again.

Yes sadly Sunday football is not like it was back in those days, when my Morley’s team first won it in 1987 we were top of a very big pile of over 100 teams, now the league is down to less than 30.

The lads you mentioned all played for Express Cleaners but when they folded in 1988 I managed to recruit a number of them including Trainor and Bowey who were excellent midfielders and they reinforced our dominance as the top team which we continued for many years after that as Mammas FC and Quilligans and a few other names as well as we changed sponsors.

Funny enough I was at Anfield last weekend with two of those Express signings Steve Trainor and Alan Gallagher who are still good friends of mine to this day.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I'm not asking you to change my mind, my point is around the factual nature of it and what percentages are we talking?

As you said, if CJ can sit on the edge of the box, he might as well be on the half way line.

I don’t know exactly… I remember the whole ‘putting players on the posts’ thing being ‘significant’, but I don’t have access to the data.

I think the point is that if he’s on the half way line, he’s in an area where he’s serving no purpose, because the ball literally never ends up there and by reducing the number of players in and around the box it is advantageous to the attacking side.

As I say… that’s the reason they don’t do it …. Initially I think managers like Pep started defending corners that way and it went from there.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Are you a politician because they never answer the question asked either.

What question ?

The reality is (being completely honest about it) the whole science behind corners and set pieces goes way over my head. It's all second phases, rebound zones and overloads etc.. I suppose if they explained things in laymans terms it might be easier... I suppose ultimately the attacking side are aiming to create space and to have a spare man / spare men.

I did manage to find a stat about putting two men on the posts, which is the likelihood of conceding from a corner is 2.1% and the likelihood of conceding from a corner with two defenders on the post is 2.7%... So that works out at an extra goal every 167 corners.... Fine margins obviously, but it all matters.

I'm presuming each manager will also have their own set of stats and those will constantly be under review.... So are we under / over performing against the expected norms etc..

 

[BFCfan33]

What question ?

The reality is (being completely honest about it) the whole science behind corners and set pieces goes way over my head. It's all second phases, rebound zones and overloads etc.. I suppose if they explained things in laymans terms it might be easier... I suppose ultimately the attacking side are aiming to create space and to have a spare man / spare men.

I did manage to find a stat about putting two men on the posts, which is the likelihood of conceding from a corner is 2.1% and the likelihood of conceding from a corner with two defenders on the post is 2.7%... So that works out at an extra goal every 167 corners.... Fine margins obviously, but it all matters.

I'm presuming each manager will also have their own set of stats and those will constantly be under review.... So are we under / over performing against the expected norms etc..

That's fair enough you are obviously a stats man and your believes, so nothing wrong with that, as you say fine margins and they are your opinions so that's all that matters

 

[BFCfan33]

Yes sadly Sunday football is not like it was back in those days, when my Morley’s team first won it in 1987 we were top of a very big pile of over 100 teams, now the league is down to less than 30.

The lads you mentioned all played for Express Cleaners but when they folded in 1988 I managed to recruit a number of them including Trainor and Bowey who were excellent midfielders and they reinforced our dominance as the top team which we continued for many years after that as Mammas FC and Quilligans and a few other names as well as we changed sponsors.

Funny enough I was at Anfield last weekend with two of those Express signings Steve Trainor and Alan Gallagher who are still good friends of mine to this day.

I played with Steve at Blackpool early eighties and Bowey is a bit older than me but both very good players. i have on a few occasions many years ago been down to the ground next to common edge (i think it was named after Jim Collins) to watch Quilligans in the big Sunday games. I am going to say your initials are MS

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

That's fair enough you are obviously a stats man and your believes, so nothing wrong with that, as you say fine margins and they are your opinions so that's all that matters

I think you're missing the point.... It's not about me. And to be honest I don't have an opinion and nor am I a stats man... It is what it is. I'm just the messenger... I'd seen the question answered previously and so I was aware of the reasoning behind the decision not to put players on the halfway line. You give people an answer and then they get all arsey and confrontational, because they don't like the answer. Would you prefer a different answer?

 

[Mcewans Mullet]

This is just another example of how our own prejudice can colour our judgement. It’s just lazy assumptions about players.

In actual fact, CJ does very well defensively. He recovers well, wins a lot of tackles, wins his fair share of aerial duels etc..

For his build and size CJs' heading ability is absolutely shocking.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

For his build and size CJs' heading ability is absolutely shocking.

Well it certainly isn’t his best attribute, but he’s by no means bottom of the class in terms of his peers.

 

[TheLuker]

So what's the response then? You're so knowledgeable about football. You've made a sweeping comment about something but can't back it up?

"You've made a sweeping comment about something but can't back it up."

Can't believe that you of all people have the audacity to chuck that line at anyone.

 

[BFCfan33]

I think you're missing the point.... It's not about me. And to be honest I don't have an opinion and nor am I a stats man... It is what it is. I'm just the messenger... I'd seen the question answered previously and so I was aware of the reasoning behind the decision not to put players on the halfway line. You give people an answer and then they get all arsey and confrontational, because they don't like the answer. Would you prefer a different answer?

You say people get arsey on here but Is your reply not being arsey? ok I may of missed your point but don't try to belittle me by asking do I want another answer?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

You say people get arsey on here but Is your reply not being arsey? ok I may of missed your point but don't try to belittle me by asking do I want another answer?

So what answer is it you are looking for?

Would you have preferred a different answer?

 

[BFCfan33]

So what answer is it you are looking for?

Would you have preferred a different answer?

I now know why people say it is very difficult to have a conversation with you because you never listen or take note of peoples views, obviously you have never been involved in football and i can see you as one who sits in the ground (if you go) and just complains for the whole 90 mins about everything.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I now know why people say it is very difficult to have a conversation with you because you never listen or take note of peoples views, obviously you have never been involved in football and i can see you as one who sits in the ground (if you go) and just complains for the whole 90 mins about everything.

I'm struggling to understand where you are going with this fella... I'm probably the most positive person on this forum... I doubt you'd ever see me complain about anything to be honest.

So what is your actual point?

 

[BFCfan33]

I'm struggling to understand where you are going with this fella... I'm probably the most positive person on this forum... I doubt you'd ever see me complain about anything to be honest.

So what is your actual point?

Don't worry about it Sir struggle away i know when i'm wasting my time, I am sure our paths will cross on other posts

 

[BFCfan33]

For his build and size CJs' heading ability is absolutely shocking.

I agree - in fact shocking is a compliment to his heading ability

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Don't worry about it Sir struggle away i know when i'm wasting my time, I am sure our paths will cross on other posts

Wasting your time doing what?

All you’ve done is tried to take the piss!

 

[BFCfan33]

Wasting your time doing what?

All you’ve done is tried to take the piss!

I certainly haven't, which element of my posts are taking the piss. i could do if you wanted but i wouldn't take any pleasure in that

 

[Satriale's Pork Store]

Regarding players on the post at corners, Danny Murphy (at the Cray valley / Charlton replay) has just commented that this is a dying art and he doesn't see enough teams doing it!!!...

After a Cray Valley player cleared one off the line.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Regarding players on the post at corners, Danny Murphy (at the Cray valley / Charlton replay) has just commented that this is a dying art and he doesn't see enough teams doing it!!!...

After a Cray Valley player cleared one off the line.

This goes some way to explaining that one at least

Why players are no longer on the posts when defending corners

Defending corners and set pieces is changing - players on the posts appear to be a thing of the past but is that a good thing?

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