Three Observations from Bolton that havent really been mentioned

[TANGERINETOWERPOWER]

In what world were there only four additional minutes in that second half? We would still have had a squeak if there had been the 8 minutes it should have been. The fact is we never even had a half chance in those 4 mins and it denied us a chance to throw everything at them.

Why is there no movement at all for our set pieces and in particular our throw ins? Its like all the players are static and never show up for the ball.

When it comes to substitutions why is Neil Critchley always reactive and never proactive...we needed to change it up when Bolton were clearly getting on top and yet it was still Bolton who changed it first in an attempt to win the points. Week in week out we dont change things until after the 62nd minute and its ridiculous. We have gone behind in so many games owing to this failure to identify where things are going wrong. The exception to this seemingly golden rule was the Fleetwood game where he patently just got the team selection plain wrong. Personally I think it is one of the managers biggest weaknesses.

 

[TANGERINETOWERPOWER]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

 

[bleach51]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

Every manager and not just ours seems to want to do this…why….there may be occasions when it’s right but overall leave one maybe two up who really won’t have much influence in our box.
Maybe the theory is if there are so many bodies inthe box it makes it harder to score but not for me.

 

[Leyland bfc]

We should leave cj up at every corner,he’s the worse header of a ball I’ve ever seen,that’s if he actually wins one.at least we could use his pace that way

 

[NewburyOne]

That last minute corner, why didn't Grimshaw go up for it? We might as well have lost 2-0. It's basics that we get wrong so many times.

 

[Danny Ocean]

That last minute corner, why didn't Grimshaw go up for it? We might as well have lost 2-0. It's basics that we get wrong so many times.

Grimshaw doesn't win the ball from a corner when he can use his hands in our box, so no chance of him getting to a corner in the
opposition box.

 

[Raging_Bull]

To be honest if we'd played until midnight we wouldn't have scored on Saturday

 

[TANGERINETOWERPOWER]

To be honest if we'd played until midnight we wouldn't have scored on Saturday

Did you bring back all outfield players to defend every corner Ragers or did you mix it up and sometimes leave one or two up top?

 

[SeasideKurt]

Did you bring back all outfield players to defend every corner Ragers or did you mix it up and sometimes leave one or two up top?

BFC x 3 mentioned this in another thread. Statistically you concede less goals due to space, that's always been the case.

But that isn't always how football works, you don't just work to a hand book. CJ is useless at defending corners and should be occupying two players on the half way line. Critch plays to the margins and the statistical success.

 

[Ping Pong]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

See my thread at weekend.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

It's a valid point about the 4 Minutes... Consistency between the referees matters in this case, because it has a bearing on the timing of substitutions and impacts on tactics..

Can't say I've noticed a particular issue with set pieces and throw ins TBH.

Critchley has made early substitutions in quite a few games this season. On Saturday, I think it was a toss up as to whether we should have made a substitution at all. I can remember thinking when they made their subs, that I really wasn't sure if we should bother. I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to see how the opposition play their cards before committing, unless he feels there's something obvious that needs attention.

BFC x 3 mentioned this in another thread. Statistically you concede less goals due to space, that's always been the case.

But that isn't always how football works, you don't just work to a hand book. CJ is useless at defending corners and should be occupying two players on the half way line. Critch plays to the margins and the statistical success.

It has more to do with the box being crowded I think...It's actually better (apparently) just to have more players in there full stop, regardless of their defensive prowess. As I said on the other thread, the same question is asked on pretty much every football forum. If it was such a simple solution, everyone would just do it.

 

[Ping Pong]

Why did no officials not see the assault by Charles on Norburn, clearly thumping Norburn on the ribs, resulting in long treatment early in first half.
Could have broke his ribs, certainty red, but oppositions never get red, just us?
The 4mins was ridiculous.
Lots of subs, injuries, time wasting notes by ref pointing to watch & a long goal celebration. Should have been double!
Bolton fans generally thought they played 12 men!!!

 

[Wizzerboy]

In what world were there only four additional minutes in that second half? We would still have had a squeak if there had been the 8 minutes it should have been. The fact is we never even had a half chance in those 4 mins and it denied us a chance to throw everything at them.

Why is there no movement at all for our set pieces and in particular our throw ins? Its like all the players are static and never show up for the ball.

When it comes to substitutions why is Neil Critchley always reactive and never proactive...we needed to change it up when Bolton were clearly getting on top and yet it was still Bolton who changed it first in an attempt to win the points. Week in week out we dont change things until after the 62nd minute and its ridiculous. We have gone behind in so many games owing to this failure to identify where things are going wrong. The exception to this seemingly golden rule was the Fleetwood game where he patently just got the team selection plain wrong. Personally I think it is one of the managers biggest weaknesses.

1st paragraph, it works both ways during a season. Bit like penalty claims
2nd paragraph, bang on
3rd paragraph, Critchley's substitutions defy logic at times

 

[NewburyOne]

Grimshaw doesn't win the ball from a corner when he can use his hands in our box, so no chance of him getting to a corner in the
opposition box.

Nuisance value alone would have been worth it.

 

[Martonmosser]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

Cos the manager is as negative as they come….. unfortunately we seem lumbered with him

 

[20togo]

In what world were there only four additional minutes in that second half? We would still have had a squeak if there had been the 8 minutes it should have been. The fact is we never even had a half chance in those 4 mins and it denied us a chance to throw everything at them.

Why is there no movement at all for our set pieces and in particular our throw ins? Its like all the players are static and never show up for the ball.

When it comes to substitutions why is Neil Critchley always reactive and never proactive...we needed to change it up when Bolton were clearly getting on top and yet it was still Bolton who changed it first in an attempt to win the points. Week in week out we dont change things until after the 62nd minute and its ridiculous. We have gone behind in so many games owing to this failure to identify where things are going wrong. The exception to this seemingly golden rule was the Fleetwood game where he patently just got the team selection plain wrong. Personally I think it is one of the managers biggest weaknesses.

I commented on the match day thread about your third point. I commented early into the second half that our players were tiring and that we couldn't close down their players around the edge of our box. Said we needed to make changes,,, but no left it too late.

 

[Pauls_Boutique]

Regarding the 4 minutes injury time, I just had a look at the stats. In the 2nd half there were 4 yellow cards and 6 separate substitutions. Supposed to add 30 seconds for each so that’s 5 minutes already. Also bear in mind one of them was for the goalkeeper timewasting so there should have been extra for that incident alone. Add on the goal celebrations thats at least 6. Plus the general taking time for throws & goal kicks that is supposed to be added on them there should have been at least an extra 7 minutes.

Very much a lack of consistency on this subject game by game.

 

[Simonized]

I commented on the match day thread about your third point. I commented early into the second half that our players were tiring and that we couldn't close down their players around the edge of our box. Said we needed to make changes,,, but no left it too late.

The manual he has learned from clearly states that 61 minutes is the earliest time you can substitution and that is unless there is an injury or the natives are getting restless.

Any substitution not made due to the last 2 circumstances shall be negative and you usually need to hook a better player when said subs are made.

Here to help

 

[Dougz]

It's a valid point about the 4 Minutes... Consistency between the referees matters in this case, because it has a bearing on the timing of substitutions and impacts on tactics..

Can't say I've noticed a particular issue with set pieces and throw ins TBH.

Critchley has made early substitutions in quite a few games this season. On Saturday, I think it was a toss up as to whether we should have made a substitution at all. I can remember thinking when they made their subs, that I really wasn't sure if we should bother. I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to see how the opposition play their cards before committing, unless he feels there's something obvious that needs attention.


It has more to do with the box being crowded I think...It's actually better (apparently) just to have more players in there full stop, regardless of their defensive prowess. As I said on the other thread, the same question is asked on pretty much every football forum. If it was such a simple solution, everyone would just do it.

Critch sat down to liaise with Garrity not long after ht, before Bolton had made one change. He was still sat down debating the point by the time Bolton were about to make their second change. This was all whilst Bolton were getting on top so that suggests he was either being indecisive or it was one hell of a conflab with Garrity. My point is that in a game like Saturday where it was fine margins, he needs to be swifter and more decisive, certainly not waiting to see what the opposition do. Evatt took the initiative and it paid dividends.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Critch sat down to liaise with Garrity not long after ht, before Bolton had made one change. He was still sat down debating the point by the time Bolton were about to make their second change. This was all whilst Bolton were getting on top so that suggests he was either being indecisive or it was one hell of a conflab with Garrity. My point is that in a game like Saturday where it was fine margins, he needs to be swifter and more decisive, certainly not waiting to see what the opposition do. Evatt took the initiative and it paid dividends.

It’s just a hunch, but I would guess they might talk to each other about stuff other than substitutions, during the game.

What substitutions would you have made, why would you have made them and how do you think that would have affected the game?

 

[Dougz]

Feels like a press conference now BFC x3 lol but listen I don’t necessarily disagree with the ones that Critch made, in fact I liked the three strikers all on the pitch at the same time but he was chasing the game by then and with a little more proactivity who knows, we could have made Bolton chase the game rather than dictating.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Feels like a press conference now BFC x3 lol but listen I don’t necessarily disagree with the ones that Critch made, in fact I liked the three strikers all on the pitch at the same time but he was chasing the game by then and with a little more proactivity who knows, we could have made Bolton chase the game rather than dictating.

You wouldn’t make this subs unless chasing the game though… So what’s the move ? What’s the subs you pro-actively make ?

 

[Mcewans Mullet]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

Tired of continually seeing us with 11 in our box for a corner.
Put 2 up on halfway = 3 players defending. + keeper and corner taker = 6 maximum in our box v 8 defenders and our keeper.
Only seen Cov do it in recent times

 

[Dougz]

You wouldn’t make this subs unless chasing the game though… So what’s the move ? What’s the subs you pro-actively make ?

Well one obvious one would have been Morgan who was blowing after 55 mins which is when the gaps started appearing. But that was when the delay occurred and we then ended up on the back foot and chasing the game.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Well one obvious one would have been Morgan who was blowing after 55 mins which is when the gaps started appearing. But that was when the delay occurred and we then ended up on the back foot and chasing the game.

So Connolly or Weir ?

 

[TANGERINETOWERPOWER]

You wouldn’t make this subs unless chasing the game though… So what’s the move ? What’s the subs you pro-actively make ?

Not Dale for Dembele for sure..Dale hasn’t played in that role for a long time..Thompson and Morgan were looking dodgy aswell..tbf it wasn’t as clear cut as it sometimes is…Critchley isnt great at subs that’s for sure

 

[Dougz]

So Connolly or Weir ?

The popular answer (not!) but as we were being cut open prob Connolly out of those two particular options to give solidity and a bit of experience in a local derby (ish), what are your thoughts ?

 

[Adams Kebab]

You wouldn’t make this subs unless chasing the game though… So what’s the move ? What’s the subs you pro-actively make ?

Kouassi on to play on Santos was an option and get two upfront. Might not have worked but would’ve got Rhodes some support.

Certainly better than Dale in a position he’s not played since he came on early season. It was a pointless sub that.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

The popular answer (not!) but as we were being cut open prob Connolly out of those two particular options to give solidity and a bit of experience in a local derby (ish), what are your thoughts ?

I’m not sure to be honest… I’d possibly have stuck Connolly in there and (having had a chance to see Joseph) I’d have probably swapped him for Dembele.

 

[Dougz]

Yep I quite liked Joseph’s cameo it showed promise, I think he’ll become a crowd favourite.

 

[midfield general]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

Both posts are spot on,l thought we went for a point, hence no shots on goal.
But we are carrying players who are always likely to give the opposition something, this time it was Husband and Thompson.
That left side gives me nightmares.
If we just went for it some of our weaknesses would not be as noticeable.

 

[Cleveleys boy]

Why is Grimshaw so slow with his distribution of the ball? I noticed a few times on recently if could have had us on the break but instead plays a safe ball to Hubby

 

[Ginge 2]

Did you bring back all outfield players to defend every corner Ragers or did you mix it up and sometimes leave one or two up top?

When I ran a team I always left 2 up front. Always 1 big lad and 1 quick lad . That meant 3 defenders back for the opposing team and kept the penalty area less cluttered so our keeper had half a chance...
On attacking corners I always had my fullback at the far corner of their penalty box. It was amazing how many corners ended up there....flicked away by defenders or over hit by the kicker.....always worked for us.

 

[Raging_Bull]

Did you bring back all outfield players to defend every corner Ragers or did you mix it up and sometimes leave one or two up top?

Never, ever did I not leave a minimum of one and usually two players up top at corners.

The simple answer is if you don't leave anyone up the park, once the corner is cleared it is 100% guaranteed to come straight back at you.

 

[Fargo99]

Never, ever did I not leave a minimum of one and usually two players up top at corners.

The simple answer is if you don't leave anyone up the park, once the corner is cleared it is 100% guaranteed to come straight back at you.

So why can't Critchley grasp this simple concept?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

So why can't Critchley grasp this simple concept?

Because like most professional football managers he’s knows that it’s the wrong percentage play. Simple as that really.

There’s this question and there’s also another “Why don’t we put defenders on the posts anymore” and the answer to both questions is the same.

The alternative produces a statistically better outcome.

 

[Raging_Bull]

Because like most professional football managers he’s knows that it’s the wrong percentage play. Simple as that really.

I also used to leave my smaller player/players up the park at corners on the basis they'd be unlikely to win any aerial challenge in the box in any case.

I also always had a man on both posts as it narrowed down the width of the goal my keeper had to defend.

These players made plenty of clearances off the line and funny enough we rarely conceded at corners and when we did clear a corner we had players competing for the ball up the pitch and managed to get out most of the time.

Now Critch could argue that he is a professional and has the relevant coaching badges to prove it, but I would counter with I used to run teams when Critch was in nappies and the principals of football remain the same!!

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I also used to leave my smaller player/players up the park at corners on the basis they'd be unlikely to win any aerial challenge in the box in any case.

I also always had a man on both posts as it narrowed down the width of the goal my keeper had to defend.

These players made plenty of clearances off the line and funny enough we rarely conceded at corners and when we did clear a corner we had players competing for the ball up the pitch and managed to get out most of the time.

Now Critch could argue that he is a professional and has the relevant coaching badges to prove it, but I would counter with I used to run teams when Critch was in nappies and the principals of football remain the same!!

You can argue the case until the cows come home mate and I know that it doesn’t seem to make logical sense, but both putting players on the posts and leaving players up for corners, produce statistically worse outcomes over time. The players on posts one is quite a big difference too.

It is what it is… Sean Dyche had a bit of a row with a fan after at a Burnley Fans forum apparently… Basically ended up with him saying “I think I’m more qualified to make that decision than you”…

 

[1966_and_all_that]

BFC x 3 mentioned this in another thread. Statistically you concede less goals due to space, that's always been the case.

But that isn't always how football works, you don't just work to a hand book. CJ is useless at defending corners and should be occupying two players on the half way line. Critch plays to the margins and the statistical success.

But as you say, matches aren't won and lost on a spreadsheet.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

But as you say, matches aren't won and lost on a spreadsheet.

So we should opt for a play with a worse outcome in order to

Suit the curiosity of fans?
Because a few fans think it’s a better thing to do?

It’s like saying, we should play Beesley instead of Rhodes, because Beesley looks more like s striker.

And then when someone points out to you the fact that Rhodes scores more goals per game, you then say, yes, but football isn’t played on a spreadsheet

Football isn’t played in the imagination of fools either!!

 

[1966_and_all_that]

So we should opt for a play with a worse outcome in order to

Suit the curiosity of fans?
Because a few fans think it’s a better thing to do?

It’s like saying, we should play Beesley instead of Rhodes, because Beesley looks more like s striker.

And then when someone points out to you the fact that Rhodes scores more goals per game, you then say, yes, but football isn’t played on a spreadsheet

Football isn’t played in the imagination of fools either!!

But you're willing to give it a try, eh?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

But you're willing to give it a try, eh?

Why would you want to give it a try?

“Hey Critch… Why don’t you give a tactic that has been shown over detailed analysis of thousands of games, to produce a worse outcome?”

“I’d rather not”

“Please, just give it a go, Kurt and 1966 on AVFTT said they think it might work….”

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Why would you want to give it a try?

“Hey Critch… Why don’t you give a tactic that has been shown over detailed analysis of thousands of games, to produce a worse outcome?”

“I’d rather not”

“Please, just give it a go, Kurt and 1966 on AVFTT said they think it might work….”

Football is an irrational passtime. It is not a machine. In that context please allow me ram your detailed analysis where the sun don't shine.

 

[Mcewans Mullet]

Because like most professional football managers he’s knows that it’s the wrong percentage play. Simple as that really.

There’s this question and there’s also another “Why don’t we put defenders on the posts anymore” and the answer to both questions is the same.

The alternative produces a statistically better outcome.

I'm unsure how havimg 9 oppo players attacking a corner as opposed to 6 can be a "wrong percentage play".
Adding to that percentage play, when 2 of those defending could be Dale + Dembele.

 

[Raging_Bull]

Some great and interesting points here and everyone has some logic to their opinion.

I base mine on years and years of personal experience that worked for me and I wouldn't change that because some spreadsheet spat out some stats telling me different, don't get me wrong if what I was doing wasn't working I'd try anything, but as they say "If it's not broke.............

As for the man on posts at corners, the number of times I see the ball end up in the net by one of the posts when the defending team has men stood around in and around the box beggars belief.

As for having Dembele and Dale defending corners instead of making the opponents have to mark them up the park, it's hardly rocket science lads so forget all this statistic nonsense.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Football is an irrational passtime. It is not a machine. In that context please allow me ram your detailed analysis where the sun don't shine.

It’s not my detailed analysis…

There’s no point getting angry and venting your pent up frustration at me

People want to know why manager’s don’t do it.. I provide the answer and they don’t like it… If you wish to remain in the dark fair enough .. I used to ask the same question… when I saw the answer, I was happy to be enlightened out of my ignorance

I'm unsure how havimg 9 oppo players attacking a corner as opposed to 6 can be a "wrong percentage play".
Adding to that percentage play, when 2 of those defending could be Dale + Dembele.

Yes, it seems to defy logic, but it is what it is. I don’t think the size comes into it. It’s about the way corners are defended, the stages in that process etc.. You need to bear in mind that Managers have access to loads of detailed data, based on tens of thousands of hours of football matches… It’s not like it’s not something obvious… If it worked then they’d all just do it.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Some great and interesting points here and everyone has some logic to their opinion.

I base mine on years and years of personal experience that worked for me and I wouldn't change that because some spreadsheet spat out some stats telling me different, don't get me wrong if what I was doing wasn't working I'd try anything, but as they say "If it's not broke.............

As for the man on posts at corners, the number of times I see the ball end up in the net by one of the posts when the defending team has men stood around in and around the box beggars belief.

As for having Dembele and Dale defending corners instead of making the opponents have to mark them up the park, it's hardly rocket science lads so forget all this statistic nonsense.

You did what you did as a manager and that’s what suited you mate. I’m not going to argue with that and at the end of the day you achieved success playing the game you wanted to play it.

Critchley along with the overwhelming majority of professional Football Managers choose to do something different. They have access to much more information and they use that to inform their choices (rightly or wrongly). Given the choice I’d always favour that detailed data over your anecdotal evidence and it’s understandable that a pro-manager (with so much riding on these decisions) would also favour that too.

What I do find a bit strange about this kind of thing though is that people are so resistant to information that advances their understanding.

It just seems daft to me… I appreciate that is counterintuitive and that poses all of us a mental conundrum, but once you know…you know.

Why would you then just ignore that information in favour of what basically amounts to ‘a hunch’…

 

[Albert Ross]

Also why do we bring all our players back for every single corner we concede. Surely if we left CJ or Dembele up then they would have to leave a minimum of two players back owing to their pace.

Dembele in particular is no use defending a corner. With his height he couldn’t out jump a garden gnome.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

It’s not my detailed analysis…

There’s no point getting angry and venting your pent up frustration at me

People want to know why manager’s don’t do it.. I provide the answer and they don’t like it… If you wish to remain in the dark fair enough .. I used to ask the same question… when I saw the answer, I was happy to be enlightened out of my ignorance


Yes, it seems to defy logic, but it is what it is. I don’t think the size comes into it. It’s about the way corners are defended, the stages in that process etc.. You need to bear in mind that Managers have access to loads of detailed data, based on tens of thousands of hours of football matches… It’s not like it’s not something obvious… If it worked then they’d all just do it.

I don't care whose detailed analysis it is and I don't care for your answers.

 

[Junior_BentsPlatformShoes]

The observation about only 4 minutes injury time is a good one barring that even if it had been 8 minutes, we;d have still tried to pass it sideways and back, rather than getting it into the box at every opportunity. As someone earlier said, not even getting the keeper up to try and salvage a point. We need to be a bit more canny changing modes of how we play, and not just sticking to the rigid plan for the whole 90+ minutes.