The goal machine

The championship can be a very physical division, with physical and tall CB's.
GM does a job for us in that he wins many aerial duels (a few of them with his chest bizarrely) , but regrettably he's often on his own so there's nobody there to pick up the flick on (apart from Jerry on the rare occasion he started last season). We don't have a big physical Mobile striker who can play up front.

But he gives defenders problems with his physicalilty. I personally think that he's a great player to call on from the bench to give us something different, but like many posters, I don't know why he starts so many games, especially on his Todd.
 
Dave62 said:
The championship can be a very physical division, with physical and tall CB's.
GM does a job for us in that he wins many aerial duels (a few of them with his chest bizarrely) , but regrettably he's often on his own so there's nobody there to pick up the flick on (apart from Jerry on the rare occasion he started last season). We don't have a big physical Mobile striker who can play up front.

But he gives defenders problems with his physicalilty. I personally think that he's a great player to call on from the bench to give us something different, but like many posters, I don't know why he starts so many games, especially on his Todd.
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He's called Jake Beesley
 
"gives defenders problems with his physicality"

Would rather he gave defenders problems with his goals or creativity tbh. It's not WWE.
 
KingZobo said:
He's called Jake Beesley
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He's certainly got the mobility and height (6ft 1 compared with GM 6 ft 4), he just looks to have less of a physical presence which gives defenders problems
Agree he should be given a chance when he returns from injury, his movement from the little I've seen is very good.
rockontommy said:
"gives defenders problems with his physicality"

Would rather he gave defenders problems with his goals or creativity tbh. It's not WWE.
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So would I, but it hasn't happened playing him on his own, nor will it.
 
Dave62 said:
So would I, but it hasn't happened playing him on his own, nor will it.
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Agreed. Will see what Appleton sees in him because I never did get what Critchley was seeing persisting with that particular tactic.
 
Defenders don't like playing against him, he's physical, the only one we've got up front at the moment. When we played West Brom in the cup Big Sam was more worried about him than anyone else. He was in the Championship team of the month for March winning 49 aerial duels far more than anyone else. Both Yates and Lavery have said he is their ideal partner up front, winning flick ons and creating space for them.

He wins a good number of defensive headers too and it's no coincidence both Critchley and Appleton have picked him to lead the line. I can't understand why Appleton has played him as a lone striker though, he needs a lively partner in Yates or Lavery to feed off him, Keshi and Bowler tend to go their own way and could never form a reliable front partnership.

Big Gaz's style is never going to be easy on the eye and he's no natural goalscorer but the managers and his team mates appreciate what his presence gives to the team.
 
Big Gaz does a specific job very well for the manager and team, and that's to bruise the CB's of the opposition. MA just needs to work out how this fits in with his preferred style of play and how we're going to score plenty more goals. That's his job as manager and well above my pay grade :)
Note: Big Gaz is a close friend of Brian 'the Lion' Rose and trains regularly in his boxing gym. That's why there's not many CB's get the better of him physically - he is one tough cookie.
 
I'm not a big fan of Madine. I get why some like him and can see what purpose he serves in the team but I just don't think its enough. It gives our midfielders nowhere to go for a pass as he doesn't make any runs which goes some way to explaining our lack of chance creation as it's only ever into his feet. That said, nobody else has made that position there own either and contributed so until we get someone else in then we are where we are.
 
rockontommy said:
If I've got this right, everyone agrees he doesn't score goals, doesn't create, but can be a nuisance. So on the days he isn't a nuisance, how good is he exactly?🤔
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The thing about super Gaz is that he hasn't yet played in a 'Pool side where we've actually crossed the ball or had a decent corner taker.

It's grand pointing out what he isn't. (fast mainly) but the fact is we've struggled without him time and time again. We averaged half a point more with him in the team versus without him last season. The season before he was one of the key factors in changing round the season and we initially struggled again in January/Feb after he got crocked.

Clearly, a striker with the ability to play in the turn and put himself about would suit Appleton's style more than Madine but I don't know who that is in the squad.

This year, I genuinely hope Jerry can make himself the main man or that Lavery refinds his mojo but last year both of them struggled up front on their own (or as a pair) far more than Gaz struggled to impact a game. I can't remember what game it was, but there was one match where Lavery and Yates combined had less of the ball than Gaz did as an individual in the next game he played. Sure, you can ask 'but does he use it' but if the other two don't have it, they sure ain't using it.

It's a dumb metric for sure, but when you look at the simple matter of touches per game (if you ain't touching the ball, you ain't having an impact) Madine has a way higher rate than any other striker in the squad. Of course he lacks stuff, but fundamentally, he's a presence in the box unlike the others.

Maybe if Carey and Fiorini click, we'll get more out of the other choices. Despite my 'hilarious' Gaz obsession, I really do hope they can both make it at this level and in Yates' case, I think he was served very poorly by the system we played last year.
 
td53 said:
The thing about super Gaz is that he hasn't yet played in a 'Pool side where we've actually crossed the ball or had a decent corner taker.

It's grand pointing out what he isn't. (fast mainly) but the fact is we've struggled without him time and time again. We averaged half a point more with him in the team versus without him last season. The season before he was one of the key factors in changing round the season and we initially struggled again in January/Feb after he got crocked.

Clearly, a striker with the ability to play in the turn and put himself about would suit Appleton's style more than Madine but I don't know who that is in the squad.

This year, I genuinely hope Jerry can make himself the main man or that Lavery refinds his mojo but last year both of them struggled up front on their own (or as a pair) far more than Gaz struggled to impact a game. I can't remember what game it was, but there was one match where Lavery and Yates combined had less of the ball than Gaz did as an individual in the next game he played. Sure, you can ask 'but does he use it' but if the other two don't have it, they sure ain't using it.

It's a dumb metric for sure, but when you look at the simple matter of touches per game (if you ain't touching the ball, you ain't having an impact) Madine has a way higher rate than any other striker in the squad. Of course he lacks stuff, but fundamentally, he's a presence in the box unlike the others.

Maybe if Carey and Fiorini click, we'll get more out of the other choices. Despite my 'hilarious' Gaz obsession, I really do hope they can both make it at this level and in Yates' case, I think he was served very poorly by the system we played last year.
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Agree with most of that but I just find it bizarre - if you were choosing metrics to judge a forward, the first two you'd look for is goals and assists. Then you go down the list and start looking at speed etc but without the goals and passing (ie the basics), being fast just makes you ...er ... fast. So the physicality argument just doesn't butter any parsnips with me.

Hope I'm wrong and a different manager can unlock this hidden potential but I'm yet to see it. The fact he has more touches makes it even worse as that's more opportunities to do something imho.

Jerry and Lavery both have another gear or two to find, we are singing off the same hymn sheet on that one.
 
rockontommy said:
Agree with most of that but I just find it bizarre - if you were choosing metrics to judge a forward, the first two you'd look for is goals and assists. Then you go down the list and start looking at speed etc but without the goals and passing (ie the basics), being fast just makes you ...er ... fast. So the physicality argument just doesn't butter any parsnips with me.

Hope I'm wrong and a different manager can unlock this hidden potential but I'm yet to see it. The fact he has more touches makes it even worse as that's more opportunities to do something imho.

Jerry and Lavery both have another gear or two to find, we are singing off the same hymn sheet on that one.
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What happens when a team has strikers that don't win the ball is they get pinned back and end up under pressure and thus concede goals.

Madine plays an odd game. He does a lot of work that a number 10 type player might do. He's genuinely very good at coming deep and being a pivot, turning the ball wide or laying off. His best work is often much deeper than your average striker.

Do we need that? I don't know but we sure as hell did last year. As I say, I hope Appleton has solved the 'how do we attack other teams other than on the break' conundrum we struggled with last season but time will have to tell.
 
td53 said:
What happens when a team has strikers that don't win the ball is they get pinned back and end up under pressure and thus concede goals.

Madine plays an odd game. He does a lot of work that a number 10 type player might do. He's genuinely very good at coming deep and being a pivot, turning the ball wide or laying off. His best work is often much deeper than your average striker.

Do we need that? I don't know but we sure as hell did last year. As I say, I hope Appleton has solved the 'how do we attack other teams other than on the break' conundrum we struggled with last season but time will have to tell.
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Fair points. Guess we will see eh. I'm no fan of Critch, particularly after PNE away but don't want him to be a scapegoat for every issue. On other threads he's to blame for Jerry's drop in form. I'm hoping his system worked for one player on the pitch at least 😮
 
rockontommy said:
Fair points. Guess we will see eh. I'm no fan of Critch, particularly after PNE away but don't want him to be a scapegoat for every issue. On other threads he's to blame for Jerry's drop in form. I'm hoping his system worked for one player on the pitch at least 😮
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Critch built an effective system that wasn't very pretty. I'm not blaming him per se more observing that we didn't have a ball player or a midfielder that carried the ball or ran beyond and thus nippy little lads didn't really work.
 
td53 said:
Critch built an effective system that wasn't very pretty. I'm not blaming him per se more observing that we didn't have a ball player or a midfielder that carried the ball or ran beyond and thus nippy little lads didn't really work.
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I think this is what worries me. Did Critch play the system because the quality simply wasn't there? Like when Pince was playing ugly and got pelters for it. Soon after we were relegated.
 
td53 said:
What happens when a team has strikers that don't win the ball is they get pinned back and end up under pressure and thus concede goals.

Madine plays an odd game. He does a lot of work that a number 10 type player might do. He's genuinely very good at coming deep and being a pivot, turning the ball wide or laying off. His best work is often much deeper than your average striker.

Do we need that? I don't know but we sure as hell did last year. As I say, I hope Appleton has solved the 'how do we attack other teams other than on the break' conundrum we struggled with last season but time will have to tell.
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Keep this up and I may have to contribute to the "5 favourite posters" thread (despite everyone who has contributed so far making a glaring omission, probably due to envy 😁 ).

I agree with every word of both your posts on this thread.
 
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rockontommy said:
I think this is what worries me. Did Critch play the system because the quality simply wasn't there? Like when Pince was playing ugly and got pelters for it. Soon after we were relegated.
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That's a very interesting thought...

Someone on twitter said "perhaps we will learn how well drilled we were last year this season" and I wonder about that.

I think the quality was there in some areas and in others not. Perhaps it would be kinder to say, some of the players lacked certain attributes even if they had good qualities.
 
onlyonepool said:
Defenders don't like playing against him, he's physical, the only one we've got up front at the moment. When we played West Brom in the cup Big Sam was more worried about him than anyone else. He was in the Championship team of the month for March winning 49 aerial duels far more than anyone else. Both Yates and Lavery have said he is their ideal partner up front, winning flick ons and creating space for them.

He wins a good number of defensive headers too and it's no coincidence both Critchley and Appleton have picked him to lead the line. I can't understand why Appleton has played him as a lone striker though, he needs a lively partner in Yates or Lavery to feed off him, Keshi and Bowler tend to go their own way and could never form a reliable front partnership.

Big Gaz's style is never going to be easy on the eye and he's no natural goalscorer but the managers and his team mates appreciate what his presence gives to the team.
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Very rare for team mates to say anything critical about each other in public so you have to take what they say about Madine with a pinch of salt.
When he wins headers the ball can go anywhere, no assists last season, assists are partly reliant on your strike partner doing their job, I don't remember Lavery and Yates being put through on goal loads of times by Madine and blowing the chance, it just didn't happen.
As for his defensive work he probably did help early in the season but now that we have, Thompson, Williams, Husband, Thornily, Keogh, Gabriel, Ekpiteta, Connolly and Dougall in the squad do we really need to play a low scoring, none assisting centre forward to help out at the back?
 
gjr69 said:
Very rare for team mates to say anything critical about each other in public so you have to take what they say about Madine with a pinch of salt.
When he wins headers the ball can go anywhere, no assists last season, assists are partly reliant on your strike partner doing their job, I don't remember Lavery and Yates being put through on goal loads of times by Madine and blowing the chance, it just didn't happen.
As for his defensive work he probably did help early in the season but now that we have, Thompson, Williams, Husband, Thornily, Keogh, Gabriel, Ekpiteta, Connolly and Dougall in the squad do we really need to play a low scoring, none assisting centre forward to help out at the back?
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It's not simply about 'helping at the back' - it's about the fact that if the other strikers don't gain possession, let alone retain it, you end up under the cosh.

As I've said above, whether that is an issue in the new season, we'll just have to see.
 
Quite frankly, if you look at all of strikers, there’s nothing between any of them.
None of them score enough goals!
Is that their fault? Partly?
Maybe a Simms/Yates might have done the trick. Now, we’ll never know.
Back to the drawing board.
We’ll never all agree.
 
Madine will both score and create a lot more goals playing in a squad where the midfield actually breaches the final third and then attempts to make runs inside and beyond the forwards. He’ll also be helped by wingers not sticking to the touch line and also coming inside too.
 
td53 said:
It's not simply about 'helping at the back' - it's about the fact that if the other strikers don't gain possession, let alone retain it, you end up under the cosh.

As I've said above, whether that is an issue in the new season, we'll just have to see.
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But he doesn't retain it very often! Against Everton on Sunday he took a high ball down really well then passed it straight to an Everton player. He isn't the only one in our squad who gives it away cheaply Anderson is a big culprit aswell, it's a part of our game that really needs to improve.
I guess a positive is you really love your football so do I but we are at opposite ends of the spectrum with Madine, not many other sports create that sort of difference of opinion!!
 
gjr69 said:
But he doesn't retain it very often! Against Everton on Sunday he took a high ball down really well then passed it straight to an Everton player. He isn't the only one in our squad who gives it away cheaply Anderson is a big culprit aswell, it's a part of our game that really needs to improve.
I guess a positive is you really love your football so do I but we are at opposite ends of the spectrum with Madine, not many other sports create that sort of difference of opinion!!
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The key point is he gets to it. If he's getting to the ball 45 time per game on average and retaining it say, 50% of the time then despite the fact he gives it away sometimes, he's doing better than a striker who gets to it 25 times and retains it 70% of the time.

One start last year Yates had just 9 touches!!!

That's basically why Gaz was key. Of course Lewondowski or someone would be an upgrade but needs must...

On possession in general, I agree, but equally we could be guilty of passing for the sake of it and not risking things. Every attack risks a loss of possession and without Keshi and Bowler giving it away from time to time, it's difficult to work out how we'd score any goals last year!

The question is - are Carey and Fiorini good enough to let us play a different way. Answer is - I dunno.
 
gjr69 said:
But he doesn't retain it very often! Against Everton on Sunday he took a high ball down really well then passed it straight to an Everton player. He isn't the only one in our squad who gives it away cheaply Anderson is a big culprit aswell, it's a part of our game that really needs to improve.
I guess a positive is you really love your football so do I but we are at opposite ends of the spectrum with Madine, not many other sports create that sort of difference of opinion!!
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Yeah, totally agree. Football is ace cos there's loads of different approaches and variables but it's essentially simple enough on the surface to grasp. 👍
 
A lot is resting on Carey and Fiorini to make the 4 3 3 work and I agree that in the final third you have to try the riskier more difficult passes to pose a threat but the unforced errors in the final third happen too often.
An upgrade on at least 2 of the front 3 could be a massive game changer unfortunately there is still a possibility it might get even weaker before it gets better if Bowler leaves.
If that happens we might have to go back to Critchleys 4 4 2 until Appleton gets the right personnel for his 4 3 3.
To be honest I'm not sure that Appleton should have changed the way we play before he got the key players to make it work.
 
rockontommy said:
I think this is what worries me. Did Critch play the system because the quality simply wasn't there? Like when Pince was playing ugly and got pelters for it. Soon after we were relegated.
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I think so. He'd just been trained up by the FA in the art of making the most of what you haven't got before getting the job here.

I think he tried to copy Liverpool to start with, maybe feeling like that's what the club were expecting of him. But soon realised he was going to be out of a job without a team do it with so changed his style. 4-2-3-1 for the first time to give up possession but match the numbers in midfield v MK Dons and it got probably the most turgid but valuable-feeling three points that I can remember at the time. And then club recognised the need to keep putting experienced assistants with him to bring more to the table than just coaching a method.

We've had 4-4-2/3-5-1-1/5-4-1 and allsorts of set ups since that have won unexpected points by focusing on the opponent. It's to NC's credit that he found a way but I missed a lot of games and just looked at the results often as I was getting frustrated by it, as mad as that might sound. Brilliant for the players I'm sure. Being treated like adults in training and doing proper prep on the opponent. Everyone in it together and getting a go, able to cover other positions and nobody complains and just gets on with it. Rises to the challenge. The kind of thing that probably inspires a player to want to become a manager. But very much football for the eyes of the people playing and managing it than watching it for me. Shoot ffs don't pass backwards in case you lose it and get hurt!

I get the feeling we're going back to 4-1-2-3 with Appleton from the pre-season reports, and that he might be more of an adventurous in his thinking than his face looks. But I'd hope it's more of a balanced 4-3-3 to keep the defensive numbers in midfield (three into a five suits the championship better) but still able to link up the attack. And full backs who can get up and down in support when needed but are solid and reliable-ish enough defensively.

Totally get why Mr Goal Machine has become a part of it because in lieu of a transfer fee he's probably the closest internal solution to a big lad up top who can work a physical defence, bring other players into play and keep a shape. But there's few things more frustrating than seeing a ball played into the box for a finish and he's just not there or he can't get on the end of it properly. He's probably not on his own with that either. The names all look good on paper but then the game starts and what sounds simple in theory just isn't.
 
gjr69 said:
A lot is resting on Carey and Fiorini to make the 4 3 3 work and I agree that in the final third you have to try the riskier more difficult passes to pose a threat but the unforced errors in the final third happen too often.
An upgrade on at least 2 of the front 3 could be a massive game changer unfortunately there is still a possibility it might get even weaker before it gets better if Bowler leaves.
If that happens we might have to go back to Critchleys 4 4 2 until Appleton gets the right personnel for his 4 3 3.
To be honest I'm not sure that Appleton should have changed the way we play before he got the key players to make it work.
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I think that last point is a really interesting one. It concerns me too.
 
poolfc said:
I think so. He'd just been trained up by the FA in the art of making the most of what you haven't got before getting the job here.

I think he tried to copy Liverpool to start with, maybe feeling like that's what the club were expecting of him. But soon realised he was going to be out of a job without a team do it with so changed his style. 4-2-3-1 for the first time to give up possession but match the numbers in midfield v MK Dons and it got probably the most turgid but valuable-feeling three points that I can remember at the time. And then club recognised the need to keep putting experienced assistants with him to bring more to the table than just coaching a method.

We've had 4-4-2/3-5-1-1/5-4-1 and allsorts of set ups since that have won unexpected points by focusing on the opponent. It's to NC's credit that he found a way but I missed a lot of games and just looked at the results often as I was getting frustrated by it, as mad as that might sound. Brilliant for the players I'm sure. Being treated like adults in training and doing proper prep on the opponent. Everyone in it together and getting a go, able to cover other positions and nobody complains and just gets on with it. Rises to the challenge. The kind of thing that probably inspires a player to want to become a manager. But very much football for the eyes of the people playing and managing it than watching it for me. Shoot ffs don't pass backwards in case you lose it and get hurt!

I get the feeling we're going back to 4-1-2-3 with Appleton from the pre-season reports, and that he might be more of an adventurous in his thinking than his face looks. But I'd hope it's more of a balanced 4-3-3 to keep the defensive numbers in midfield (three into a five suits the championship better) but still able to link up the attack. And full backs who can get up and down in support when needed but are solid and reliable-ish enough defensively.

Totally get why Mr Goal Machine has become a part of it because in lieu of a transfer fee he's probably the closest internal solution to a big lad up top who can work a physical defence, bring other players into play and keep a shape. But there's few things more frustrating than seeing a ball played into the box for a finish and he's just not there or he can't get on the end of it properly. He's probably not on his own with that either. The names all look good on paper but then the game starts and what sounds simple in theory just isn't.
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Excellent post that.
 
Gregbfc said:
You must have this answer on copy and paste 🤪
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Fair comment. I have used the same'ish reply twice in two days.

I dont understand the need to be so pessimistic about the players weve got though. We've made some decent signings already with more to come I'm sure. Certain posters have gone into some kind of meltdown looking for issues that as of yet are not issues. Chill and let Gary work his goal magic.
 
Thing is with Madine is that his work often goes unmissed, it's the use of the ball and the clever pass under pressure that opens up the game for other players to get an assist. So far we've only had one player that can properly feed off of him in the traditional way, that's Jerry, lavery is never quite close enough or generally in tune with Madine. Also we need wingers who will cross the ball to make him effective as a goalscorer.
Saying that lumping it to the big guy needs to be plan B or better still plan F.
 
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