Our famous sovereignty

Bottle said:
Well we can’t really influence that any more can we, mind you with a PM more concerned about his own backside and links to Russia and a Foreign Secretary who’s posted her 48th official photograph in a week on Twitter and was shocked to discover her counterparts in Russia have had the cheek to lie to her, there might have been a delay in attending anyway!
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We never could have much influence over a bloated slow moving organisation which relies on the agreement of 27 countries.
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
Utter rubbish! This situation hasn't come about because of the lack of cooperation in Europe. It's come about because of a power crazed Russian madman. But you carry on banging your sad old Brexit drum.
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Once again you miss the point. Of course its down to a madman, but a madman who sees us pulling ourselves away from an alliance and sees it as weakness.

The EU was specifically set up to prevent a war in Europe. Us leaving of course weakened that position.
 
Wizaard said:
Once again you miss the point. Of course its down to a madman, but a madman who sees us pulling ourselves away from an alliance and sees it as weakness.

The EU was specifically set up to prevent a war in Europe. Us leaving of course weakened that position.
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Disagree re us leaving the EU has weakened Europe on the war front. I’ve already said if it gets to it we will all be in it together. What difference does leaving the EU make when it comes to teaming up to stop a mentalist. You know dammed well we would stand together.
 
Wizaard said:
Once again you miss the point. Of course its down to a madman, but a madman who sees us pulling ourselves away from an alliance and sees it as weakness.

The EU was specifically set up to prevent a war in Europe. Us leaving of course weakened that position.
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It thought this was down to NATO being on Russia's doorstep and them not wanting Ukraine to join and fuck all to do with one poxy country leaving a trading Union.
 
Scaramanga said:
Disagree re us leaving the EU has weakened Europe on the war front. I’ve already said if it gets to it we will all be in it together. What difference does leaving the EU make when it comes to teaming up to stop a mentalist. You know dammed well we would stand together.
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Of course you think that. It suits the narrative that there are no downsides to Brexit.

Meanwhile in the real world...
 
Wizaard said:
Once again you miss the point. Of course its down to a madman, but a madman who sees us pulling ourselves away from an alliance and sees it as weakness.

The EU was specifically set up to prevent a war in Europe. Us leaving of course weakened that position.
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I disagree with you on that. Whether the UK were in the EU or not wouldn't have made the slightest difference to Putin. He's a madman.
 
20togo said:
You don't half come up with some guff in order to back up your political left remoaning views. In effect you are saying if the UK hadn't left the EU then Putin would not have considered invading the Ukraine because the EU would have been far stronger military wise. Notdoubt you'd have been criticising the reduction of numbers in our armed forces.

Yet the mods see fit to remove my post for making this very point. That you lefties are far more obsessed with criticising the UK rather than the actions of a madman.
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Bang on the money.
 
poolseasider said:
It thought this was down to NATO being on Russia's doorstep and them not wanting Ukraine to join and fuck all to do with one poxy country leaving a trading Union.
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I think its got everything to do with a poxy country leaving the EU, its weakened the strength and decision making and allowed one poxy country to be played against 27 former “teammates”. Just as its everything to do with Russia’s impact on elections in both the US and UK and elsewhere in the world.

Whilst the West has been dicking about, Putin has strengthened ties with Xi in China and Kim Jong-un and other Dictators, sanctions haven’t really bothered him (or the other 2) - its a fight now over Democracies and Despots and Putin has been preparing for this for years, he can’t be allowed to win, unfortunately this will be military rather than economic means, we are in a very deadly situation.
 
Wizaard said:
A more coordinated response might have prevented it. We'll never know.

As it is, we've had a decade of taking our eye off the ball, taking the Russian rouble and alienating our partners.
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Haven't many posters on this board stated the UK is now a non-entity with no influence in world politics? If that is the case inside or outside the EU makes no difference.
 
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Bottle said:
I think its got everything to do with a poxy country leaving the EU, its weakened the strength and decision making and allowed one poxy country to be played against 27 former “teammates”. Just as its everything to do with Russia’s impact on elections in both the US and UK and elsewhere in the world.

Whilst the West has been dicking about, Putin has strengthened ties with Xi in China and Kim Jong-un and other Dictators, sanctions haven’t really bothered him (or the other 2) - its a fight now over Democracies and Despots and Putin has been preparing for this for years, he can’t be allowed to win, unfortunately this will be military rather than economic means, we are in a very deadly situation.
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It' s not about the strength of the EU which you are so keen to focus on, It's about the strength of Russia and Putin knows that. Are the EU even a super power when comparing to the likes of Russia, the US and China?
 
Recidivist3 said:
Is this the intelligent dialogue you were talking about the other day

haven’t you got cows to kick or something
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Post 66 on this thread confirms bringing the role of the USA into the debate is of relevance. Apologies if your not on an intellectual level to understand that...crack on with your insults if you feel that contributes in a more meaningful way....
 
20togo said:
It' s not about the strength of the EU which you are so keen to focus on, It's about the strength of Russia and Putin knows that. Are the EU even a super power when comparing to the likes of Russia, the US and China?
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No because, as you well know, there is no EU Army, but Poland and Lithuania are both member states and no guarantee that Putin won’t keep on marching through Ukraine and at that point military involvement from the EU will occur, where will the UK stand then? Not our problem? More sanctions?

I would think Putin has already thought about this, has he sidelined our Nuclear Weaponry by splitting the EU, so I’m focussing on how much stronger the EU position would be if we were still a member state.
 
Bottle said:
No because, as you well know, there is no EU Army, but Poland and Lithuania are both member states and no guarantee that Putin won’t keep on marching through Ukraine and at that point military involvement from the EU will occur, where will the UK stand then? Not our problem? More sanctions?

I would think Putin has already thought about this, has he sidelined our Nuclear Weaponry by splitting the EU, so I’m focussing on how much stronger the EU position would be if we were still a member state.
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nope, if it becomes necessary for the armies of the various EU contries to get involved then no doubt the UK forces will stand shoulder to shoulder with them. It's stating the obvious.
 
If Brexit is irrelevant why did Putin want it? Brexit isn't the decisive issue but with one of the big three leaving it doesn't help with a unified front, particularly when relationships soured.
 
Bottle said:
No because, as you well know, there is no EU Army, but Poland and Lithuania are both member states and no guarantee that Putin won’t keep on marching through Ukraine and at that point military involvement from the EU will occur, where will the UK stand then? Not our problem? More sanctions?

I would think Putin has already thought about this, has he sidelined our Nuclear Weaponry by splitting the EU, so I’m focussing on how much stronger the EU position would be if we were still a member state.
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Even if we stayed in the EU and had a European army, there would still be the problem of getting 28 members to agree on what action to take. That is what makes the U.S., Russia and China so powerful, they have one leader.
 
Scaramanga said:
HAHAHAHAHAHA OK 66.
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You may find the weakness of Britain's armed forces a laughing matter. I can assure you that I do not. You may or may not be aware that in March last year the Government published its five year Defence Review. It confirmed that the army target size would be cut by 9,500 to 72,500 by 2025, its lowest level since 1714, towards the end of the war of the Spanish succession.
The number of navy frigates and destroyers would drop from 19 to 17 in the next 18 months. A third of the army’s Challenger tanks would be scrapped, while 148 will be upgraded, at a cost of £1.3bn.

At the time, Mike Mullen, a former chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, warned that these cuts were “a huge concern” to him as an ally. “You are getting very close to not being able to contribute, quite frankly,” he told journalists at the BBC.
As I say, this is not a knock about bit of fun. It matters.
 
Wizaard said:
Once again you miss the point. Of course its down to a madman, but a madman who sees us pulling ourselves away from an alliance and sees it as weakness.

The EU was specifically set up to prevent a war in Europe. Us leaving of course weakened that position.
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Unfortunately some people are a bit shit at dot to dot. Its like they think everything happens singularly.
 
TSSeasider said:
If you put that to a referendum; it would probably be welcomed by a majority of the population.

Again, it would be our decision.

I'd vote against it though.
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We elect Governments to rule on our behalf and have an opportunity to change them on a regular basis. Referenda are a complete cop out of the Parliamentary democratic process.
 
Scaramanga said:
No I found your over excitable response funny.
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Good, at least you don't think the weakness of the UK's armed forces is a laughing matter. So why come on with all this, "when required the UK will be in arms together with the rest of Europe to get rid of a mentalist"? I mean, if it comes to it we may have to but we're not in the best shape to do it. Besides, a full on European war is what Putin wants, 'death or glory for the might of Russia against the decadent and failing West' is the narrative that informs the actions of this dangerous madman. We, in the West must tread carefully at this stage.
 
Wizaard said:
We elect Governments to rule on our behalf and have an opportunity to change them on a regular basis. Referenda are a complete cop out of the Parliamentary democratic process.
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I agree; but it's the nonsense about it being just Johnson's decision; that's patently not true as you've referenced in your reply.
 
TSSeasider said:
I agree; but it's the nonsense about it being just Johnson's decision; that's patently not true as you've referenced in your reply.
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Johnson is no Putin in terms of being the sole decision maker, but as PM he is ultimately accountable for the collective decision.
 
TSSeasider said:
Agreed.

It's good to see most right minded people winding down the rhetoric about Johnson and the Conservative Party being fascists, when we are watching what an actual fascist is doing.
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I've never said he's a fascist. An idiot buffoon liar but that's character flaws for you.
 
Wizaard said:
I've never said he's a fascist. An idiot buffoon liar but that's character flaws for you.
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But you're right minded; there are plenty who have lots with #FBPE in their twitter handle.

Meanwhile, it's hard to argue against the list of character flaws; most of which are forgivable to his supporters as he'd be a good laugh down the pub.
 
Putin is the problem not Brexit.Anyone who thinks he would have followed a different approach if the UK was still in the EU is living in cuckoo land.
His vitriolic speech of the other day is where the truth lies in respect of the man and his actions and beliefs.
He is in effect a modern day Hitler who unfortunately has turned Russia into a Dictatorship where any dissent is dealt with ruthlessly and there is no sign of that changing.
 
bleach51 said:
Putin is the problem not Brexit.Anyone who thinks he would have followed a different approach if the UK was still in the EU is living in cuckoo land.
His vitriolic speech of the other day is where the truth lies in respect of the man and his actions and beliefs.
He is in effect a modern day Hitler who unfortunately has turned Russia into a Dictatorship where any dissent is dealt with ruthlessly and there is no sign of that changing.
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Nail on head there bleach. 👍
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Good, at least you don't think the weakness of the UK's armed forces is a laughing matter. So why come on with all this, "when required the UK will be in arms together with the rest of Europe to get rid of a mentalist"? I mean, if it comes to it we may have to but we're not in the best shape to do it. Besides, a full on European war is what Putin wants, 'death or glory for the might of Russia against the decadent and failing West' is the narrative that informs the actions of this dangerous madman. We, in the West must tread carefully at this stage.
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At no stage have i said we should get in there militarily. I stand by what i said 66, if and when we do we would stand together with the rest of the world. Do not under estimate our power and influence. Its classic Leftism to denounce our country and its Military and it pisses me right off.
 
Sunpool said:
Well for a highly qualified, experienced professional.. your not very bright then!!! But of course you still live in the UK, just like all those that where leaving the UK once Brexit happened. Must try harder at being a smart arse!!
;
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Sunpool. I'm bright enough to know the difference between "your" and "you're", "were" and "where". Brexit is clearly having no benefits for the illiterate and hard of thinking. I left the UK to work a long time ago, but would like to go back before my parents pop their clogs. It was a genuine enquiry.
 
Scaramanga said:
At no stage have i said we should get in there militarily. I stand by what i said 66, if and when we do we would stand together with the rest of the world. Do not under estimate our power and influence. Its classic Leftism to denounce our country and its Military and it pisses me right off.
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They also forget percentage of GDP we are the second biggest contributer behind USA to NATO if that isn't spending on military what is.
 
Scaramanga said:
At no stage have i said we should get in there militarily. I stand by what i said 66, if and when we do we would stand together with the rest of the world. Do not under estimate our power and influence. Its classic Leftism to denounce our country and its Military and it pisses me right off.
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Th left do not do that. The Labour Party is a Parliamentary democratic Party. It publicly rejected State Communism in the 1930s. It is fully behind the Government in condemning Russia. My concern is that our military is too weak, it needs bolstering with more personnel, better weaponry and other materiel. It should not be weakening our conventional forces in order to upgrade our nuclear capability. The latter will only be used under American control. Otherwise it is a deterent that does not deter.No, the democratic left wing in british politics wants a sucessful, healthy and progressive Britain. Your perseption sounds bitter and needs to be adjusted.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Th left do not do that. The Labour Party is a Parliamentary democratic Party. It publicly rejected State Communism in the 1930s. It is fully behind the Government in condemning Russia. My concern is that our military is too weak, it needs bolstering with more personnel, better weaponry and other materiel. It should not be weakening our conventional forces in order to upgrade our nuclear capability. The latter will only be used under American control. Otherwise it is a deterent that does not deter.No, the democratic left wing in british politics wants a sucessful, healthy and progressive Britain. Your perseption sounds bitter and needs to be adjusted.
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Fair enough, Only as bitter as you are about the Tory party.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Th left do not do that. The Labour Party is a Parliamentary democratic Party. It publicly rejected State Communism in the 1930s. It is fully behind the Government in condemning Russia. My concern is that our military is too weak, it needs bolstering with more personnel, better weaponry and other materiel. It should not be weakening our conventional forces in order to upgrade our nuclear capability. The latter will only be used under American control. Otherwise it is a deterent that does not deter.No, the democratic left wing in british politics wants a sucessful, healthy and progressive Britain. Your perseption sounds bitter and needs to be adjusted.
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You've just had a pacifist as leader and now you want to bolster the army.🤣
 
TSSeasider said:
If you put that to a referendum; it would probably be welcomed by a majority of the population.

Again, it would be our decision.

I'd vote against it though.
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That's why we normally avoid referendums on principle. We elect people to Parliament to make our laws and we willfully agree that those elected MPs choose from among themselves the leaders of the Executive.
 
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