Civil Service pay

TwelveAngryMen said:
I think the point is that if you reach the point that the Govt has to stand the loan your business must be goosed - and there will likely be PG's called upon elsewhere in such circumstances
As he says hardly free money
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Can you lend me some money that’s interest FREE for 12 months please? If it’s not free money and all that. Thanks.

And I’ve checked. CBILS loans for less than 250K no PGs permitted. Above 250k permitted but limited to 20% of the loan value with the taxpayer potentially picking up 80%. Charges over your home not permitted, so seasideone was wrong on that point as well.

Whenever I see a cat and pigeons it’s hard to resist the temptation, so I’ll just add: seems awfully like socialism for businesses and the free market for workers if you ask me.
 
Mex

My point of order!!!

There are 5.9 million companies in the UK employing between 1 and 250 people without the scheme a significant percentage of those companies would be on the edge and laying off their employees. Yes,some of the bigger companies are taking advantage of the scheme when they might use their own or their shareholders funds to bridge the gap but without it in place any recovery would be a long time in comming.

Its a falacy to think of all businesses being big and all business people to be grasping users most SME owners started by putting their houses on the line then growing from there with all kinds of set backs on the way.

And quiet a lot of them visit this site so winging over a 2.6% pay rise seems a bit churlish at the moment.
 
From the people I know/have worked with, DB (defined benefit) pensions were starting to be phased out by employers in the private sector due to their cost (and many schemes being in deficit) many years ago. The public sector kept them going for longer, hence (I assume) the reference to public sector pensions on this forum. But as Lala and Lytham have posted, they are not worth the same for the young starting today and I also "pity the poor f***ers starting now" as posted above (whether starting in public or private sector TBH)

For balance, public sector salaries are (in my experience) lower for senior roles, but formerly with better pension arrangements. Lower skilled roles perhaps not too much difference (*all my opinion/experience only*)

My son worked in the private sector until the virus lock-down began, then his employer immediately made him redundant, resulting in him losing his house purchase and reluctantly moving back in with us. The employers said they couldn't afford furlough so made several redundant on a last in first out basis. (NB - not moaning - realise it's the way it is for many people). Therefore I would tend to agree that public sector jobs are more secure. For example - my lad's mate at DWP has not stopped working.

As for pay rises for front line workers, I agree that the 8.00 Thursday applause is simply not enough, particularly for NHS and care staff.
I think there should be some form of financial recognition (beyond the proposed pay-outs for families of NHS staff who have sadly died doing their jobs!) when (or if) this is over. They have clearly (to me at least) gone beyond what is probably in their contract of employment (again - opinion only)

As a colleague once said to me (as his manager), "you can't blow the froth off a thank you"
 
braymarina said:
Mex

My point of order!!!

There are 5.9 million companies in the UK employing between 1 and 250 people without the scheme a significant percentage of those companies would be on the edge and laying off their employees. Yes,some of the bigger companies are taking advantage of the scheme when they might use their own or their shareholders funds to bridge the gap but without it in place any recovery would be a long time in comming.

Its a falacy to think of all businesses being big and all business people to be grasping users most SME owners started by putting their houses on the line then growing from there with all kinds of set backs on the way.

And quiet a lot of them visit this site so winging over a 2.6% pay rise seems a bit churlish at the moment.
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I know. I was the owner of an SME that employed over 100 people and took all the risks you mention. And I’m sure if I was still working I’d have applied for a CBIL and staff would be on furlough. In fact I’ve said on numerous other threads that the financial packages have been a success to date (in comparison to the management of the public health crisis).

My point really is the “workshy, bone idlers on furlough” narrative that’s started on here and amongst certain Tory MPs, which ignores the fact that the packages were designed to help businesses at the same time as avoiding the situation they have in the US with mass redundancies.

In short I agree with your post, especially the last paragraph about the churlish response of some to a fair pay rise.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Can you lend me some money that’s interest FREE for 12 months please? If it’s not free money and all that. Thanks.

And I’ve checked. CBILS loans for less than 250K no PGs permitted. Above 250k permitted but limited to 20% of the loan value with the taxpayer potentially picking up 80%. Charges over your home not permitted, so seasideone was wrong on that point as well.

Whenever I see a cat and pigeons it’s hard to resist the temptation, so I’ll just add: seems awfully like socialism for businesses and the free market for workers if you ask me.
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You have to put up 20% and charges on your home ARE being asked for - which is half the problem.

Also a business can go bust with large assets which does not necessarily mean the tax payer gets 80% of the bill - of course it could but usually there is stuff left.

A lot of businesses go bust through cash flow issues rather than having lack of assets or are not in profit.

In fairness the loans under 250k tend to be for smaller business‘s and neither use nor ornament to a huge amount of companies, hence why I didn’t include them initially.
 
Lala, I've really started to feel more Tory in my middle years. They've proven themselves to be a fantastic bunch, with a clear understand of what this country needs. I know they get slated over Brexit, but from what I've read in the papers, Corbyn and Labour would have been even worse, so i'm happy accepting some level of incompetence and infighting as at least I have a job and I'm not being ruled by a terrorist sympathizer and Dianne Abbott, who can't spell or count.
 
Wizaard said:
What about the increased costs of heating, lighting, power that I'm using by being at home? I can see our massive city centre offices being offloaded saving millions a year and us picking up the work at home tab.
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Did you not get 10k for working from home Wizz?
Oh sorry that was only for MPs..............they must 'ave t'fire on 3 bars 24/7.
 
I actually think the government have done pretty well on the finance side.

Regarding civil service pay - I would guess some parts deserve a pay rise and others do not - like most companies. I appreciate that is difficult as well.

The stories of skiving I have heard and that have been posted on here over the years by some (not all) at Warbreck are amazing and in the private sector you would last 5 mins!

Although I would be offering the NHS something to make some form of difference whether a one off decent bonus for front line staff or a pay increase, or a mixture of both.
 
seasideone said:
You have to put up 20% and charges on your home ARE being asked for - which is half the problem.

Also a business can go bust with large assets which does not necessarily mean the tax payer gets 80% of the bill - of course it could but usually there is stuff left.

A lot of businesses go bust through cash flow issues rather than having lack of assets or are not in profit.

In fairness the loans under 250k tend to be for smaller business‘s and neither use nor ornament to a huge amount of companies, hence why I didn’t include them initially.
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Nope you’re wrong. The rules on CBILS changed on 23 March and charges on the principal private residence were prohibited.

And CBILS aren’t available for the very large companies (Branson, Ashley,O’Leary, Martin etc.). They have a different, but equally generous, socialist support package.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Nope you’re wrong. The rules on CBILS changed on 23 March and charges on the principal private residence were prohibited.

And CBILS aren’t available for the very large companies (Branson, Ashley,O’Leary, Martin etc.). They have a different, but equally generous, socialist support package.
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They are still asking though - I know the rules have changed but they are asking!!!!
 
This won't be popular with some and it is only my personal opinion. I don't understand why (some) civil servants i.e. the original poster, thinks they deserve a huge pay rise for doing their job, which is secure for the future. Some workers are living off furlough (80%) pay, 856,000 extra people are currently claiming benefits, millions will not have a job to go back to and job opportunities will be scarce, all taxes and NI will rise and maybe even our retirement age, our children's grandchildren will be paying off the huge national debt as we enter in the worst ever recession. The NHS staff have received many plaudits, as well as free food (even entirely free goods in pop up shops) cosmetics, transport etc etc in appreciation for the front line workers dedication. The NHS (and care home) staff who have been put at above expected risk do deserve recognition (nursing award?), but it isn't realistic to add further cost to a broken economy. The same non monetary recognition should apply to all front line staff who have kept the country going and educated the children whilst putting themselves at risk.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Point of order!!

The furlough scheme bailed out the bosses; not the workers!!!!! Basically the taxpayer (that’ll be me again!) assumed responsibility for a huge wedge of business costs as compensation for the revenue lost as a result of the lockdown. So it’s those businesses that are the prime beneficiaries.

And that’s on top of the grants and loans, particularly CBILS which involve interest free loans of up to £5m per business. Free cash for 12 months!!!! Yes please. Oh and if the companies default on the repayment of the loans they only have to pay 20%; the taxpayer (hi there!) will pay the rest. So nice for the banks as well.

Now these schemes might well be sensible measures, but not let’s misrepresent who they are designed to benefit.
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Bit narrow minded Mex.
If the "bosses" go out of business they take the "workers" with them.
 
Dave62 said:
From the people I know/have worked with, DB (defined benefit) pensions were starting to be phased out by employers in the private sector due to their cost (and many schemes being in deficit) many years ago. The public sector kept them going for longer, hence (I assume) the reference to public sector pensions on this forum. But as Lala and Lytham have posted, they are not worth the same for the young starting today and I also "pity the poor f***ers starting now" as posted above (whether starting in public or private sector TBH)

For balance, public sector salaries are (in my experience) lower for senior roles, but formerly with better pension arrangements. Lower skilled roles perhaps not too much difference (*all my opinion/experience only*)

My son worked in the private sector until the virus lock-down began, then his employer immediately made him redundant, resulting in him losing his house purchase and reluctantly moving back in with us. The employers said they couldn't afford furlough so made several redundant on a last in first out basis. (NB - not moaning - realise it's the way it is for many people). Therefore I would tend to agree that public sector jobs are more secure. For example - my lad's mate at DWP has not stopped working.

As for pay rises for front line workers, I agree that the 8.00 Thursday applause is simply not enough, particularly for NHS and care staff.
I think there should be some form of financial recognition (beyond the proposed pay-outs for families of NHS staff who have sadly died doing their jobs!) when (or if) this is over. They have clearly (to me at least) gone beyond what is probably in their contract of employment (again - opinion only)

As a colleague once said to me (as his manager), "you can't blow the froth off a thank you"
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The pay outs for deceased staff aren't an extra, it's the death in service payment written in to our contracts.

If I get hit by a bus today them Mrs Lytham receives it, nowt to do with Covid.
 
straightatthewall said:
Lala, I've really started to feel more Tory in my middle years. They've proven themselves to be a fantastic bunch, with a clear understand of what this country needs. I know they get slated over Brexit, but from what I've read in the papers, Corbyn and Labour would have been even worse, so i'm happy accepting some level of incompetence and infighting as at least I have a job and I'm not being ruled by a terrorist sympathizer and Dianne Abbott, who can't spell or count.
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Good summing up that SATW. They may not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination but just imagine the alternative. Imagine the daily press bulletins with Abbot and the other comics. On a slightly different point I’ve been very impressed with Grant Shapps during this pandemic, he’d previously been seen as a bit of a figure of fun, but he’s looking like a possible leadership contender further down the line if he carries on like this. Well done Grant.
 
When i was at Warbreck, the careers master Mr Wilkinson used to threaten us with the civil service, "If you don't pull your finger out lad its Norcross for you"
The point i'm making is that people joined the civil service for a steady job, the pay was never fantastic but the deal being you paid into a pension scheme and maybe got to retire early. Now successive governments have started to take these rights away. The people who get these "gold" plated pensions have spent a lifetime paying into them.
There are some very envious people in the UK
 
I can't see anything other than another 10 years of public sector austerity (whether its justified or not). I cant see a generous pay rise for public servants happening. If it happened against the backdrop of mass unemployment in the private sector it would be unpopular to say the least, even more so if it accompanied rises in the rates of tax and NI. What I can see is job cuts across the entire sector. The first Civil Servants to go I think will be Whitty, Harries, Van Tam et al, as they will be carrying the can. It was noticeable to me at yesterdays press briefing how Van Tam took pains to politically distance himself, particularly towards the end, declining abruptly to answer a question (it was about something the politicians are working on), specifically stressing the words "advice given to the Government" let me be very clear I am speaking on medical grounds only, etc seemed to me like he was saying "we are giving advice to the Government but they are not taking it".
 
CCFskiver said:
I can't see anything other than another 10 years of public sector austerity (whether its justified or not). I cant see a generous pay rise for public servants happening. If it happened against the backdrop of mass unemployment in the private sector it would be unpopular to say the least, even more so if it accompanied rises in the rates of tax and NI. What I can see is job cuts across the entire sector. The first Civil Servants to go I think will be Whitty, Harries, Van Tam et al, as they will be carrying the can. It was noticeable to me at yesterdays press briefing how Van Tam took pains to politically distance himself, particularly towards the end, declining abruptly to answer a question (it was about something the politicians are working on), specifically stressing the words "advice given to the Government" let me be very clear I am speaking on medical grounds only, etc seemed to me like he was saying "we are giving advice to the Government but they are not taking it".
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Funny, as it just felt to me like he was avoiding providing information that allowed the press to twist and get ahead of themselves, before the Government and Scientific Advisors have established the appropriate time and process for releasing the information.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
The pay outs for deceased staff aren't an extra, it's the death in service payment written in to our contracts.

If I get hit by a bus today them Mrs Lytham receives it, nowt to do with Covid.
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Sorry about that Lytham, I hadn't realised that.
The way they were announcing it at the daily briefings was as if it was a new initiative.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
Think it's a question of who pays for it
With the gov't revenues expected to be savaged and a projected 6m unemployed the maths doesn't work
There also seems to be a fallacy that you earn less in the pubic sector Maybe at the top end that might be right but most certainly not for most
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Less than what or who? How about the equivalent executive rolls in other large organisations.
 
Newholland said:
So why the OP?
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Well, you might have to ask the OP poster why he posted it. However, I can say that the OP is not pointing the finger at other groups of employees, just making a valid point about the way the Civil Service has been a convenient organisation to downgrade, pay-wise by it's employer over many years.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
Totally agree .The government is currently going into eye watering amounts of debt to bale out those who can`t currently work in furlough and universal credit payments while plenty more are seeing their businesses disappear down the plughole and at the same time the massive drop in government receipts from taxation means they have precious little money coming in and we have some on here still in full time employment complaining about an above inflation pay rise.

Utterly self centred and economically totally clueless.
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Nonsense.
 
Lala said:
Civi service pensions aren’t free either. Contributions are much more in line with reality now, so much so I know a few new starters who have opted out of the scheme.
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And back when the CS pensions were effectively non-contributory, salaries were kept below the equivalent in the private sector to compensate.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Well, you might have to ask the OP poster why he posted it. However, I can say that the OP is not pointing the finger at other groups of employees, just making a valid point about the way the Civil Service has been a convenient organisation to downgrade, pay-wise by it's employer over many years.
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No group is an island isolated from the rest of society especially at a time like this so the O/P is particularly inappropriate when he has a job and a pension and an above inflation pay increase whilst many others have lost almost everything.Is this how Labour supporters think ? If so it tells you what a hypocritical self centred bunch some of them are.
 
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1966_and_all_that said:
Well, you might have to ask the OP poster why he posted it. However, I can say that the OP is not pointing the finger at other groups of employees, just making a valid point about the way the Civil Service has been a convenient organisation to downgrade, pay-wise by it's employer over many years.
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That’s fair enough 1966....but as a key worker who effectively took a 20% pay cut at the start of all this while working the the same 80-90 hour week... you can perhaps imagine my sympathy for the op is somewhat muted😳
 
1950`spoolfan said:
No group is an island isolated from the rest of society especially at a time like this so the O/P is particularly inappropriate when he has a job and a pension and an above inflation pay increase whilst many others have lost almost everything.Is this how Labour supporters think ? If so it tells you what a hypocritical self centred bunch some of them are.
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I see you are on the cusp of being convinced. Perhaps it's your open-minded approach to debate that does it.
 
Newholland said:
That’s fair enough 1966....but as a key worker who effectively took a 20% pay cut at the start of all this while working the the same 80-90 hour week... you can perhaps imagine my sympathy for the op is somewhat muted😳
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I understand completely and fully sympathise with your position. However, it is not the OP who put you into that situation. It will be for your employer to fully recompense you when normality resumes.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I understand completely and fully sympathise with your position. However, it is not the OP who put you into that situation. It will be for your employer to fully recompense you when normality resumes.
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Self employed. Publics panic buying causing massive supply chain disruption, combined with lockdown. Thing is , I’m not whining about it. It is what it is and like many others I’ll make the best of a bad situation.
 
Newholland said:
Self employed. Publics panic buying causing massive supply chain disruption, combined with lockdown. Thing is , I’m not whining about it. It is what it is and like many others I’ll make the best of a bad situation.
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Stoicism's one thing but perhaps the Govt might think of a National Insurance holiday for SMEs in your situation.
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
No group is an island isolated from the rest of society especially at a time like this so the O/P is particularly inappropriate when he has a job and a pension and an above inflation pay increase whilst many others have lost almost everything.Is this how Labour supporters think ? If so it tells you what a hypocritical self centred bunch some of them are.
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A We haven't got an above inflation pay rise.
B We're managing a 2200% increase in the workload at a time when 40% of staff are unable to either go to work, are ill or are self-isolating.
C Ministers said they'd do more than just platitudes 3 weeks ago.

Nothing hypocritical or self centred about any of us. As a 50s Pool fan I presume you're in receipt of a state pension. I presume you'll turn down your triple locked pension increase because to do otherwise would be hypocritical and self centred.
 
Wizaard said:
A We haven't got an above inflation pay rise.
B We're managing a 2200% increase in the workload at a time when 40% of staff are unable to either go to work, are ill or are self-isolating.
C Ministers said they'd do more than just platitudes 3 weeks ago.

Nothing hypocritical or self centred about any of us. As a 50s Pool fan I presume you're in receipt of a state pension. I presume you'll turn down your triple locked pension increase because to do otherwise would be hypocritical and self centred.
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A I refer you back to the correct measure of inflation posted earlier on this thread by BFC x3 which suggests your pay rise is above the current rate.Either way it is certainly around the inflation rate.

B If you are currently managing a 2200% increased workload which sounds incredible, then you must have previously been grossly underemployed otherwise such an increased workload would have been quite impossible.

C Unsure what you mean by that.

You are correct that I like most others of my age receive a state pension. I can`t see any logic in your suggestion that anyone like me who has worked and paid taxes all my working life should now turn down what the government believes is fair and reasonable recompense for people like myself in retirement.State pension is hardly a king`s ransom and no doubt far less than most civil servants will receive when they retire.

Furthermore I don`t think the award I received from our Lord Mayor for all the years of voluntary service I gave to our local hospice would suggest any hypocrisy or self centredness.
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
A I refer you back to the correct measure of inflation posted earlier on this thread by BFC x3 which suggests your pay rise is above the current rate.Either way it is certainly around the inflation rate.

B If you are currently managing a 2200% increased workload which sounds incredible, then you must have previously been grossly underemployed otherwise such an increased workload would have been quite impossible.

C Unsure what you mean by that.

You are correct that I like most others of my age receive a state pension. I can`t see any logic in your suggestion that anyone like me who has worked and paid taxes all my working life should now turn down what the government believes is fair and reasonable recompense for people like myself in retirement.State pension is hardly a king`s ransom and no doubt far less than most civil servants will receive when they retire.

Furthermore I don`t think the award I received from our Lord Mayor for all the years of voluntary service I gave to our local hospice would suggest any hypocrisy or self centredness.
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Are you really that desperate to have a go at people? And for what? What do you get out of it? The Civil Service is populated by ordinary people just trying to do a job. What on Earth is so bad about that that they need to be insulted and told that they're slackers who don't need decent pay and don't have enough to do?
I was a civil servant and I don't go round slagging off telesales workers, electricians, council workers, builders, teachers or anyone who is employed and whose wages are set by an employer.
Just allow people a chance to fight for decent wages without all the insinuations.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
B If you are currently managing a 2200% increased workload which sounds incredible, then you must have previously been grossly underemployed otherwise such an increased workload would have been quite impossible.
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It's difficult to know where to begin with this kind of stupidity. You obviously have no idea how much work goes into running the Government in normal times. And managing the response to a pandemic, implementing the biggest financial bail-out in modern history and simultaneously finding ways to make remote working effective leads to the kind of exponential increase in workload described.

And percentage increase in workload has no direct relationship whatsoever with pre-existing capacity. I thought everyone knew that.
 
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