Working class, middle class or other?

BFC_BFC_BFC said:
A house is an asset and so I can kind of see some point in owning one. Though if I can borrow at 2% and earn 10% on my capital, the. I’d have to be an idiot not to do so.

Car Finance is cheap and convenient....
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10% on your capital in this day 😮
 
The class structure is a system designed to ensure some of the working plebs who bought a council house and drive a Merc with a private reg plate (they can ill afford) idolise characters who were born into money, went to schools like Eton, walked into top city jobs at 21 and rule over them in positions of power. Easily bought suckers.
 
Lala said:
What you’re looking for in my opinion is charisma.
That doesn’t always come with class. Some charismatic types can be totally devoid of class.
But do remember, this is only my opinion. I’m aware class is something that is very open to individual interpretation, so in some ways there is no right or wrong. Only your own viewpoint counts sometimes.
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Yes... I kind of think that you need a bit of charisma / character in order to truly have class..

I agree that you can be charismatic and have no class....and that’s the key to class... It’s having that charisma, but not being a ** with it.
 
It’s an intriguing debate and whilst there’s no real answer to what makes someone of a certain class, I think we all know that class divides do exist in this country.

Working class people almost fear the notion of private education, the middle classes desperately want to send their kids to private school and the upper-middle and upper classes don’t even know there’s a form of education that’s free.

The working classes like football and rugby league and the middle like soccer and rugby union and the upper middle/upper are shit at sport.
 
Things have changed so much since I started work as an engineering apprentice at BAC in Preston 1968. Back then if you earned a living using your hands, getting them dirty, basically you were working class. Unfortunately all those types of jobs you could describe as that have gone now, Miners, Shipbuilders, Dockers, Car makers, et al. Aspiring middle class were on the whole ‘white collar’ workers, office guys, the ‘Suits’ or as the old ditty went, “The working class can kiss my ass, I’ve got the Foreman’s job at last!” Then the Upper Class, born into wealth, land owners, best educated, etc. Then of course Brenda and her lot! at the summit. By all accounts though there are now 7 classes! not going to attempt to define those mind! Then we have the new ‘Underclasses’ 3 generations with no work ethic or lack of opportunity and education, popular name for this class is ‘Chavs’ or a circle of deprivation i would call it which needs breaking. Ironically the Underclass and the Upper class have the same common denominator, both hand down the same ethos to the next generation, it would be a result if both could be changed eventually!
 
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I always like the Brian Jackson quote- ‘The middle class expects help from the police, the working class expects trouble.’
 
Mark_GT said:
Er - yes. Unless you always look for an up to date model. My last once cost £1200 cash. Unfortunately it's ended up costing another 400 quid for now as I took this out of the bank as a part payment, then hid it somewhere in the house for safekeeping and can't find it! 😗
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Have you still not found that?
 
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free.
But you're still f**cking peasants as far as I can see.
A working class hero is something to be.
 
Imposter syndrome is a thing innit. That we're subconsciously bred to perform at a certain level and we panic if we get above that regardless of ability. I find all that quite interesting and I think I suffer from it a bit sometimes in terms of lacking ambition. I also find it weird that people deny class exists when since 1955 we've had 13 PMs and 5 of them came from the same school.

As far as I know, from my school there's a lad who does a bit of work for Sky, a lad who used to edit the Big Issue, a girl who is a magistrate and Neil Whitworth. (the Neil Whitworth - he left well before me though)

How come their school has 5 PMs and mine doesn't even have one? Why is there only one PM in that time scale who went to ANY school in the north of England (Wilson) How many kids at Eton go on to be joiners and primary school teachers and delivery drivers and stuff like a lot of people from my school did?

What's that about if it's not class structures at work?
 
td53 said:
Imposter syndrome is a thing innit. That we're subconsciously bred to perform at a certain level and we panic if we get above that regardless of ability. I find all that quite interesting and I think I suffer from it a bit sometimes in terms of lacking ambition. I also find it weird that people deny class exists when since 1955 we've had 13 PMs and 5 of them came from the same school.

As far as I know, from my school there's a lad who does a bit of work for Sky, a lad who used to edit the Big Issue, a girl who is a magistrate and Neil Whitworth. (the Neil Whitworth - he left well before me though)

How come their school has 5 PMs and mine doesn't even have one? Why is there only one PM in that time scale who went to ANY school in the north of England (Wilson) How many kids at Eton go on to be joiners and primary school teachers and delivery drivers and stuff like a lot of people from my school did?

What's that about if it's not class structures at work?
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The whole establishment is geared up to keep the same types in power, the old boys club. Of course class exists, but until I perused this thread I'd honestly never thought about myself, I worked & did ok so I must be working class.
 
td53 said:
Imposter syndrome is a thing innit. That we're subconsciously bred to perform at a certain level and we panic if we get above that regardless of ability. I find all that quite interesting and I think I suffer from it a bit sometimes in terms of lacking ambition. I also find it weird that people deny class exists when since 1955 we've had 13 PMs and 5 of them came from the same school.

As far as I know, from my school there's a lad who does a bit of work for Sky, a lad who used to edit the Big Issue, a girl who is a magistrate and Neil Whitworth. (the Neil Whitworth - he left well before me though)

How come their school has 5 PMs and mine doesn't even have one? Why is there only one PM in that time scale who went to ANY school in the north of England (Wilson) How many kids at Eton go on to be joiners and primary school teachers and delivery drivers and stuff like a lot of people from my school did?

What's that about if it's not class structures at work?
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Most people i think confuse the class system with the class or quality of an individual. The upper classes are supposed or assumed to be a higher quality of person, morally superior and hence they have some kind of divine right to priviledge and the advantages therein. The idea that we sit in a pre-defined strata which is dependent upon who and what our parents and grand-parents might have been should have been consigned to the dustbin a long time ago, but like you say it is still very prevalent and becoming worse.

The imposter syndrome is an interesting psychological topic, and ive seen it in action, both in work scenarios and personal life, and it was with people who i would not have necesarily expected it of. Interesting you bring up ambition in regard to that, because ambition in some respects is the epitomy of a lack of class (chasing money, power or stuff), but on the other hand its ambition to do different things that has seen me have the life I have had.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
Most people i think confuse the class system with the class or quality of an individual. The upper classes are supposed or assumed to be a higher quality of person, morally superior and hence they have some kind of divine right to priviledge and the advantages therein. The idea that we sit in a pre-defined strata which is dependent upon who and what our parents and grand-parents might have been should have been consigned to the dustbin a long time ago, but like you say it is still very prevalent and becoming worse.

The imposter syndrome is an interesting psychological topic, and ive seen it in action, both in work scenarios and personal life, and it was with people who i would not have necesarily expected it of. Interesting you bring up ambition in regard to that, because ambition in some respects is the epitomy of a lack of class (chasing money, power or stuff), but on the other hand its ambition to do different things that has seen me have the life I have had.
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Love your last sentence and totally get that 👍
 
So to sum up my o/p. My "Fair Lady" and myself will remain divided on this topic. She is of the opinion she is now middle class due to the educated professional circles she works in and the high wages she now earns. While myself, I will remain working class till the box comes.
We have plenty of material things and money and are very comfortable in life, which no matter what class you are in is priceless.

This is how we want our 4 children to build there lives.

So class seems to be a personal choice to some extent until you get to the upper levels where that seems to be inbred in our society.

Some great reads on this thread and no political point scoring which is really good.

Thanks for the replies 👍
 
The view that class is dependent on wealth is misguided. Some people just have class, you can’t necessarily define it, but it’s the way they go about life, the way they behave, and it’s either taught, or learned, or it’s just there.

Some people carry out acts of class, like the black guy who picked up the white guy in the blm protests and got him to safely.
 
Saw this recently. A reasonable contender?

“The working class seek value in money, the middle class seek value in object, but the rich only seek value in power.”
 
td53 said:
Imposter syndrome is a thing innit. That we're subconsciously bred to perform at a certain level and we panic if we get above that regardless of ability. I find all that quite interesting and I think I suffer from it a bit sometimes in terms of lacking ambition. I also find it weird that people deny class exists when since 1955 we've had 13 PMs and 5 of them came from the same school.

As far as I know, from my school there's a lad who does a bit of work for Sky, a lad who used to edit the Big Issue, a girl who is a magistrate and Neil Whitworth. (the Neil Whitworth - he left well before me though)

How come their school has 5 PMs and mine doesn't even have one? Why is there only one PM in that time scale who went to ANY school in the north of England (Wilson) How many kids at Eton go on to be joiners and primary school teachers and delivery drivers and stuff like a lot of people from my school did?

What's that about if it's not class structures at work?
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All good points. You missed Tony Blair Fettes College). Also, probably, Gordon Brown.
 
I’m not sure anybody said it doesn’t exist. I said I think it’s a nonsense, outdated etc and not how I interpret class, but not that it isn’t in play, unfortunately.
 
In the traditional sense of the words, I'd say I am from a working class background, but I am the example of social mobility, so am now middle class. To put this in a context, my daughter who is 15 has been on more plane journeys than she has used public buses!

But, I actually think we should be looking a little deeper than this.

How much influence do you have in your life? Individual agency is fundamental but so many people have none.
If you wanted to change something; could you? Could you get your councillor onside, have you lobbied your MP etc.

I talk about the irrelevant class; people who have none of those things, who are, to all intents and purposes, irrelevant to the policy makers and exist in a world where they have no influence.
 
td53 said:
I think Blair went to school in Edinburgh and brown definitely went to a comp in Kirkcaldy. Not the north of England!
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You see, It's dead easy to steam ahead on social media without engaging brain fully. I was thinking you'd meant only one was from the North....hence my reference to Blair and Fettes College (it is indeed in Edinburgh).
 
1966_and_all_that said:
You see, It's dead easy to steam ahead on social media without engaging brain fully. I was thinking you'd meant only one was from the North....hence my reference to Blair and Fettes College (it is indeed in Edinburgh).
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I look all knowledgeable there but I actually just looked at Wikipedia last night.

It's just the contrast - not only did no PMs go to my school, no PMs went to a school in my town, county, the next county along or the one after that. Or the one below it. Wilson went to School in Huddersfield and the Wirral and is the only PM from the entire region. When you think about how that's Lancashire, Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Cumbria, Humberside, Greater Manchester, Cheshire etc etc. Some huge cities and dense populations, some great schools (mine wasn't lol!)

Wow! Compare that to ONE SCHOOL! having FIVE PMs

Just wrecks my head when I think about it. I know it, but then it's mad all the same..
 
TSSeasider said:
In the traditional sense of the words, I'd say I am from a working class background, but I am the example of social mobility, so am now middle class. To put this in a context, my daughter who is 15 has been on more plane journeys than she has used public buses!

But, I actually think we should be looking a little deeper than this.

How much influence do you have in your life? Individual agency is fundamental but so many people have none.
If you wanted to change something; could you? Could you get your councillor onside, have you lobbied your MP etc.

I talk about the irrelevant class; people who have none of those things, who are, to all intents and purposes, irrelevant to the policy makers and exist in a world where they have no influence.
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I think that's pretty wise TS - really interesting way of looking at it. Possibly the deunionisation of the traditional working class is also a thing there as well as that lobbying isn't happening on behalf of people who may not do it themselves any more or at least with less influence and impact.
 
Lala said:
I’m not sure anybody said it doesn’t exist. I said I think it’s a nonsense, outdated etc and not how I interpret class, but not that it isn’t in play, unfortunately.
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Fair enough. I don't think class has the attention from 'woke' culture at large. Teenagers I know are very aware of impact of gender, race, trans rights etc but don't seem to think anything about class.

I think what I mean is not that you or other posters don't think it exists, but more it's like something we've decided to ignore collectively now. It *should* be outdated but oddly it isn't despite generations of politicians saying their goal is 'classlessness' we're palpably not there yet!

It's like Labour. I thought Angie Raynor was a way better bet than Starmer but the smooth fella got the nod above the brasher council estate lady and I don't think that's exclusively a gender thing. I think Raynor grates on people cos of the way she talks. That's class at work.

I think as an individual interacting with others ignoring it all together is exactly right otherwise you get a chip on yet shoulder but I think as a social force, it's impossible to ignore if that makes sense...
 
td53 said:
I think that's pretty wise TS - really interesting way of looking at it. Possibly the deunionisation of the traditional working class is also a thing there as well as that lobbying isn't happening on behalf of people who may not do it themselves any more or at least with less influence and impact.
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There's something in this; where people are voiceless, they need advocates so they are heard until such a time as they are encouraged/enabled to have their own. The ability to let go of being the advocate is difficult as to be honest it's quite the ego trip assimilating the voice of others.

My simple rule of thumb is "I speak for me" as it makes me aware to ensure that I create the spaces and conditions for people to speak for themselves. Obviously, we are talking about societal scale here, so that requires a complete change in emphasis from our elected representatives (potentially citizens assemblies etc) which may be impossible; but the underlying principle of supporting and encouraging people have a say and be heard is important.

We then need to be honest enough to say, even having had your say, you might not get your own way as that's life!
 
Matesrates said:
You sit on them? You’d have to be a contortionist to wash your feet then
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I wish we had more of them here, a really good idea and the only way to really get clean after a good tom tit. We could at least go the way of SE Asia and have a connected hose to the toilet.
I did go out with an Italian for a few years who thought that British people were dirty because we didn't have them - I tend to agree
 
TSSeasider said:
There's something in this; where people are voiceless, they need advocates so they are heard until such a time as they are encouraged/enabled to have their own. The ability to let go of being the advocate is difficult as to be honest it's quite the ego trip assimilating the voice of others.

My simple rule of thumb is "I speak for me" as it makes me aware to ensure that I create the spaces and conditions for people to speak for themselves. Obviously, we are talking about societal scale here, so that requires a complete change in emphasis from our elected representatives (potentially citizens assemblies etc) which may be impossible; but the underlying principle of supporting and encouraging people have a say and be heard is important.

We then need to be honest enough to say, even having had your say, you might not get your own way as that's life!
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Really interesting this mate. Got to work but very thought provoking. I think possibly the 'labour' movement has failed in stepping back from advocacy historically. Like they speak on behalf of people but then don't trust those people to speak for themselves going forward so to speak...

Anyway...
 
td53 said:
Fair enough. I don't think class has the attention from 'woke' culture at large. Teenagers I know are very aware of impact of gender, race, trans rights etc but don't seem to think anything about class.

I think what I mean is not that you or other posters don't think it exists, but more it's like something we've decided to ignore collectively now. It *should* be outdated but oddly it isn't despite generations of politicians saying their goal is 'classlessness' we're palpably not there yet!

It's like Labour. I thought Angie Raynor was a way better bet than Starmer but the smooth fella got the nod above the brasher council estate lady and I don't think that's exclusively a gender thing. I think Raynor grates on people cos of the way she talks. That's class at work.

I think as an individual interacting with others ignoring it all together is exactly right otherwise you get a chip on yet shoulder but I think as a social force, it's impossible to ignore if that makes sense...
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Your first para is very true. I was going to post earlier that my girls wouldn’t as be clued up at all on class and who fits into what category. That pleases me 👍
 
td53 said:
I think that's pretty wise TS - really interesting way of looking at it. Possibly the deunionisation of the traditional working class is also a thing there as well as that lobbying isn't happening on behalf of people who may not do it themselves any more or at least with less influence and impact.
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That is a really good point 👍
 
td53 said:
I look all knowledgeable there but I actually just looked at Wikipedia last night.

It's just the contrast - not only did no PMs go to my school, no PMs went to a school in my town, county, the next county along or the one after that. Or the one below it. Wilson went to School in Huddersfield and the Wirral and is the only PM from the entire region. When you think about how that's Lancashire, Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Cumbria, Humberside, Greater Manchester, Cheshire etc etc. Some huge cities and dense populations, some great schools (mine wasn't lol!)

Wow! Compare that to ONE SCHOOL! having FIVE PMs

Just wrecks my head when I think about it. I know it, but then it's mad all the same..
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One of the reasons I am aware of Blair's school is that my headmaster at Arnold went on to be head at Fettes College the year after I left.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
The class system holds this country back IMO.
For instance, the reason why recently we have had had a series of incompetent PMs is because of the class system.
If we are serious about being a meritocratic society then we have a lot of work to do. In theory, this would be a better way of doing things because generally the most able people would get the most important jobs. The biggest step towards making us more meritocratic would be to make private education almost impossible for most through taxation (or actually make it against the law somehow). IMO private education allows parents to buy advantage for their children that they wouldn't necessarily have if they got the same education as other poorer children.
Of course, no political party is brave enough to try this.
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Labour planned to abolish private schools had it won the last election. At the party’s annual conference they voted for a proposal to “integrate” them into the state sector. Another brilliant policy lost on some on here!!

The old sociological debate around class went something like 'The Queen is undoubtedly richer than the Prime Minister but does she have the power?
 
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kuriousoranj said:
Labour planned to abolish private schools had it won the last election. At the party’s annual conference they voted for a proposal to “integrate” them into the state sector. Another brilliant policy lost on some on here!!
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A brilliant policy?

Since when has changing a winning formula been a brilliant policy?

The state sector should be aiming to emulate their success, not water it down.
 
It
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
A brilliant policy?

Since when has changing a winning formula been a brilliant policy?

The state sector should be aiming to emulate their success, not water it down.
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Since when has an expensive education been a winning formula??

It divides children on the ability to pay and you equate intelligence with class.
 
kuriousoranj said:
Since when has an expensive education been a winning formula??

It divides children on the ability to pay and you equate intelligence with class.
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Since it’s consistently churned out and developed some of the best educated and brightest minds in our country.

Private education doesn’t divide anything, it simply provides alternative to state funded education.

The State retains the option to increase the general standard of education.
 
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