Should the UK suspend arms sales to Israel

[1966_and_all_that]

You're last remark is a very cheap shot but from you it's no surprise. You just love to think you're the moral and social conscience of the world. In true typical left wing style.

You love casting aspersions yet you are weak on morality.

 

[Lala]

It’s a yes from me. The fact we supply such a negligible amount makes it less relevant and therefore easier to stop supplying them anyway in my opinion.

And it’s now the right thing to do.

 

[Macseasider]

You're last remark is a very cheap shot but from you it's no surprise. You just love to think you're the moral and social conscience of the world. In true typical left wing style.

If he's coming across as "left wing" then you are coming across as not liking Palestinians very much.....

 

[gjr]

Yes. Can you imagine what the same people would be saying if:

1. Hamas had actually killed these aid workers: and

2. The U.K. was supplying arms to Hamas.

Would they be saying “oh yeah. Sad but Shit happens in war” to excuse the first?

Or

“Yeah well. We don’t supply much in percentage terms so I don’t think it’d make much difference” in relation to the second?

I found it odd yesterday that the story about the aid workers in Mail Online was the 13th story down the page. And there was some very banal celebrity and health crap placed higher up the page!
The top story was one of the original Israeli victims of the horrific attack by Hamas reliving her ordeal.
Now most of us would run these stories side by side exposing the evil committed by both camps but the Mail runs with a massively pro Israeli government agenda!
Out of interest can anybody explain to me why the Mail makes an editorial decision to value Israeli lives as more important than Palestinian lives?

 

[20togo]

I was just recalling your lectures about the sanctity of Remembrance weekend when you objected to a march that was calling for a ceasefire. A position by the way that almost all of even the most ardent Netanyahu apologists now agree with.

But we now have three British veterans “murdered” (your word) by the IDF, and you’re apparently happy to continue supplying arms to them.

And then bang on about “moral and social conscience” like it’s a bad thing.

I think it’s all a bit odd, and hypocritical, tbh.

somewhat of a distortion methinks. I objected to the march taking place that weekend because it was blatantly obvious that there would be trouble which there was. You want to forget conveniently that i stated i had no problem with the march taking place on any other weekend. Doesn't Japan have an arms deal with Australia? Wow, who'd have thought that after WW2.

 

[20togo]

You love casting aspersions yet you are weak on morality.

whereas you like to sit and give a moral judgement on every goddam issue. Perhaps i don't adopt the high and mighty holier than thou attitude that you seem to do. That's a good left wing thing isn't it?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

somewhat of a distortion methinks. I objected to the march taking place that weekend because it was blatantly obvious that there would be trouble which there was. You want to forget conveniently that i stated i had no problem with the march taking place on any other weekend. Doesn't Japan have an arms deal with Australia? Wow, who'd have thought that after WW2.

Why shouldn't Japan have an arms deal with Australia? Japan are our allies as are Germany and Italy. What point are you driving at?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

whereas you like to sit and give a moral judgement on every goddam issue. Perhaps i don't adopt the high and mighty holier than thou attitude that you seem to do.

So in the absence of a reasonable argument to support yout position you take to personal insults. I'll debate with you 20s but there's no need for that.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I found it odd yesterday that the story about the aid workers in Mail Online was the 13th story down the page. And there was some very banal celebrity and health crap placed higher up the page!
The top story was one of the original Israeli victims of the horrific attack by Hamas reliving her ordeal.
Now most of us would run these stories side by side exposing the evil committed by both camps but the Mail runs with a massively pro Israeli government agenda!
Out of interest can anybody explain to me why the Mail makes an editorial decision to value Israeli lives as more important than Palestinian lives?

The “West” (us and the US principally) is often accused by many other countries of hypocrisy and double standards where Israel is concerned. I hate to say it (not least because it gives Putin a propaganda weapon) but you can sort of see their point. I think the Israeli response since 7/10 has made many people view the Middle East in a different light. Even Trump has been critical FFS!!

I’ve said it before about Netanyahu, but it takes a special sort of incompetence to achieve a moral equivalence with Hamas. But he’s managed it.

 

[20togo]

If he's coming across as "left wing" then you are coming across as not liking Palestinians very much.....

I don't like Hamas very much. And seeing as i've already said that the innocent Palestinian people are suffering horrendously i can only conclude you are talking nonsense.

 

[20togo]

So in the absence of a reasonable argument to support yout position you take to personal insults. I'll debate with you 20s but there's no need for that.

ah right so me being weak on morality was not a personal insult? Let me think about that.

 

[Macseasider]

I don't like Hamas very much. And seeing as i've already said that the innocent Palestinian people are suffering horrendously i can only conclude you are talking nonsense.

What about what the Israelis are doing to Palestinian people? Do they deserve to be wiped out?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

ah right so me being weak on morality was not a personal insult? Let me think about that.

No it was not an insult. From what you write I find you weak on any position of morality. That's an intellectual assessment. I wouldn't insult you. If I do that, I've lost.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

somewhat of a distortion methinks. I objected to the march taking place that weekend because it was blatantly obvious that there would be trouble which there was. You want to forget conveniently that i stated i had no problem with the march taking place on any other weekend. Doesn't Japan have an arms deal with Australia? Wow, who'd have thought that after WW2.

There was trouble that weekend I agree. It happened when the EDL charged the Cenotaph and attacked the police.

I don’t get your reference to Australia and Japan at all. Are they currently at war? Is Australia supplying arms to Japan that are being used to kill Australians? Is it on the news now? Blimey!!

 

[20togo]

What about what the Israelis are doing to Palestinian people? Do they deserve to be wiped out?

problem seems to be mac, is that your memory isn't that good. I've on more than one occasion questioned what the ulterior motive of Israel is? Is it to force all Palestinians out of Gaza, maybe south into Egypt. I've also stated how wrong that all the land reclaiming going on in the West Bank is out of order and strong action needs to be taken to give this land back to the Palestinians. So hardly saying that i don@t like them very much is it? What is happening in Gaza is horrendous.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

somewhat of a distortion methinks. I objected to the march taking place that weekend because it was blatantly obvious that there would be trouble which there was. You want to forget conveniently that i stated i had no problem with the march taking place on any other weekend. Doesn't Japan have an arms deal with Australia? Wow, who'd have thought that after WW2.

No you didn't.

You kept repeating that remembrance weekend was 'sacrosanct' and that the march should not take place because of the remembrance aspect. Although for some reason you were OK with football matches taking place on the same weekend (where there could also be trouble) because football matches had always taken place. And of course you ended up being personally abusive to other posters, myself included.
It follows a rather similar pattern to this debate where you have tied yourself in knots with your need to defend Israeli actions before resorting to personal abuse.

Killing innocent people is wrong, in this case it is particularly bad as these people were trying to alleviate human suffering caused by Israel.
Our government has a duty to defend our interests, including the lives of Britons abroad.
Therefore we need to do something to demonstrate to the Israeli government and the rest of the world that what they have done is completely unacceptable.
One way of doing that is to stop supplying them with weapons.
It's called diplomacy.

 

[20togo]

There was trouble that weekend I agree. It happened when the EDL charged the Cenotaph and attacked the police.

I don’t get your reference to Australia and Japan at all. Are they currently at war? Is Australia supplying arms to Japan that are being used to kill Australians? Is it on the news now? Blimey!!

Yes<and we knew there would be trouble. But if that march hadn@t taken place then I doubt the EDL would have been there and the weekend would have passed peacefully. Which was always my point.

 

[20togo]

No it was not an insult. From what you write I find you weak on any position of morality. That's an intellectual assessment. I wouldn't insult you. If I do that, I've lost.

I found it insulting and still do.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I found it insulting and still do.

Enjoy your cold comfort. I can't be responsible for that.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Yes<and we knew there would be trouble. But if that march hadn@t taken place then I doubt the EDL would have been there and the weekend would have passed peacefully. Which was always my point.

Yes I knew you’d say that.

So much for Freedom of Speech and standing up to the bully boys eh.

Nope. “The EDL have threatened to cause trouble so you need to call off the march (which was nowhere near the Cenotaph in the first place). And if you don’t then any violence is down solely to you.”

The argument wasn’t convincing then and it’s not convincing now. Trying to appease the Far Right never works.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I find the responses interesting, if a tad expected. Also interesting have been the contributions from UK former senior military officers, barristers and Tory politicians accepting the view that the UK should cease arming Israel on the basis of international law. That is refreshing.
What is not refreshing is the equivocation of the UK Government and the Labour Party (the next Government). Watch how quickly they fall into line if the US decides to cease arming the IDF. However it's an election year in both the UK and the USA so don't expect morality from either.

As for me, I support a cessation of arming Israel. That country's actions have gone well beyond self-defence and deserve to be condemned. Hamas, of course, is to be condemned and should return all hostages without equivocation.

 

[20togo]

No you didn't.

You kept repeating that remembrance weekend was 'sacrosanct' and that the march should not take place because of the remembrance aspect. Although for some reason you were OK with football matches taking place on the same weekend (where there could also be trouble) because football matches had always taken place. And of course you ended up being personally abusive to other posters, myself included.
It follows a rather similar pattern to this debate where you have tied yourself in knots with your need to defend Israeli actions before resorting to personal abuse.

Killing innocent people is wrong, in this case it is particularly bad as these people were trying to alleviate human suffering caused by Israel.
Our government has a duty to defend our interests, including the lives of Britons abroad.
Therefore we need to do something to demonstrate to the Israeli government and the rest of the world that what they have done is completely unacceptable.
One way of doing that is to stop supplying them with weapons.
It's called diplomacy.

Yes i did. Re your first para, you're clutching at straws. You're talking about something historical such as football matches and Remembrance weekend taking place at the same time whereas this was a one off event potentially attracting up to a million people saying it was a peace march but also a protest against Israel and where it was stating the obvious that it would bring out people like the EDL.

As for your second para, i replied to Mac saying that in what form that stance should be taken!

 

[20togo]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I find the responses interesting, if a tad expected. Also interesting have been the contributions from UK former senior military officers, barristers and Tory politicians accepting the view that the UK should cease arming Israel on the basis of international law. That is refreshing.
What is not refreshing is the equivocation of the UK Government and the Labour Party (the next Government). Watch how quickly they fall into line if the US decides to cease arming the IDF. However it's an election year in both the UK and the USA so don't expect morality from either.

As for me, I support a cessation of arming Israel. That country's actions have gone well beyond self-defence and deserve to be condemned. Hamas, of course, is to be condemned and should return all hostages without equivocation.

yes, as you say the responses were a tad expected. But that's what you get on these type of subjects. Putting it politely, i'll say a leftish view compared to a rightish one.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

yes, as you say the responses were a tad expected. But that's what you get on these type of subjects. Putting it politely, i'll say a leftish view compared to a rightish one.

Ah but there's the rub. I deliberately noted in my thread the Establishment types: brigadier and barristers, who, along with Tory MPs have supported the ending of arming Israel. That is not reflected in the political stance on here but it is informative about the political and Establishment hierarchy in the country.

 

[20togo]

Ah but there's the rub. I deliberately noted in my thread the Establishment types: brigadier and barristers, who, along with Tory MPs have supported the ending of arming Israel. That is not reflected in the political stance on here but it is informative about the political and Estsablishment hierarchy in the country.

have to say, i've read practically nothing on it, only the thoughts of people on here. So my thoughts are based on no elses views but my own.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

I cannot undertand how any poster can continue to support arming Israel, They committed murder, it was not "a" mistake, it was three separate missile attacks, on identified vehicles on a notified route. As for the laughable argument that it doesn't matter because it is only 0.3% of their weapons, morality is morality, you can't be a little bit pregnant. You either stand for right, or you don't. Hamas are evil and this attack was also evil, one never justifies the other.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

problem seems to be mac, is that your memory isn't that good. I've on more than one occasion questioned what the ulterior motive of Israel is? Is it to force all Palestinians out of Gaza, maybe south into Egypt. I've also stated how wrong that all the land reclaiming going on in the West Bank is out of order and strong action needs to be taken to give this land back to the Palestinians. So hardly saying that i don@t like them very much is it? What is happening in Gaza is horrendous.

You may call me patronising but that's a good post.

 

[20togo]

I cannot undertand how any poster can continue to support arming Israel, They committed murder, it was not "a" mistake, it was three separate missile attacks, on identified vehicles on a notified route. As for the laughable argument that it doesn't matter because it is only 0.3% of their weapons, morality is morality, you can't be a little bit pregnant. You either stand for right, or you don't. Hamas are evil and this attack was also evil, one never justifies the other.

find that a bit rich really. Imagine the consequences if Israel wasn't able to arm itself by means of arms deals. Maybe, there then wouldn't be an Israel for much longer with all those friendly neighbours close by. But hey, people maybe don't think that's relevant. Maybe, thank god that those people who are responsible for making these decisions have a bit more gumption than the knee-jerkists on here.

 

[20togo]

You may call me patronising but that's a good post.

Of course it is because i've said it before. It's not all one sided and never has been.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

find that a bit rich really. Imagine the consequences if Israel wasn't able to arm itself by means of arms deals. Maybe, there then wouldn't be an Israel for much longer with all those friendly neighbours close by. But hey, people maybe don't think that's relevant. Maybe, thank god that those people who are responsible for making these decisions have a bit more gumption than the knee-jerkists on here.

That is a staggering statement. You are happy to continue to support a regime murdering British Citizens, brave military veterans who have put their lives on the line to feed starving Palestinians.

Maybe, as you have boasted you haven't read anything about it, do a bit of reading about the cross party support for at least a temporary embargo before making your usual labelling of those who differ from your view as lefties.

Maybe you might also read about the tens of thousands of Israelis marching against the current Government, those who do not think the right wing should be driving illegal settlement in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

[20togo]

That is a staggering statement. You are happy to continue to support a regime murdering British Citizens, brave military veterans who have put their lives on the line to feed starving Palestinians.

Maybe, as you have boasted you haven't read anything about it, do a bit of reading about the cross party support for at least a temporary embargo before making your usual labelling of those who differ from your view as lefties.

Maybe you might also read about the tens of thousands of Israelis marching against the current Government, those who do not think the right wing should be driving illegal settlement in the West Bank and Gaza.

have you addressed the point i've made or are you deliberately avoiding it. And wow even more. Have you not read my post #65? Go on, go and have a quick peak.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Anyway, regardless of who said what in this thread, of course we should stop supplying arms, any other opinion is ** stupid.

 

[Shandypants]

20s isn't interested in politics........

 

[Tangerinemoss]

have you addressed the point i've made or are you deliberately avoiding it. And wow even more. Have you not read my post #65? Go on, go and have a quick peak.

Oh, I've read it but you are still making excuses for not supporting an arms embargo. It is a very simple matter of morality. You are making excuses for supporting sending arms to a regime which has killed three of our brave ex servicemen, helping helpless civilians who are being starved. Maybe an arms embargo might bring a regime change in Israel before the whole region goes up in flames

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I wondered when Hamas would get "the blame" for murdering British aid workers...

But one will always argue had Hamas not massacred 1,400 Jews on 07/10/23 the war wouldn’t have happened and everyone that’s so far died (25,000)
including these aid workers would all be still alive today.

And that’s a fact wether you like it or not so no although they weren't directly responsible for murdering these aid workers but indirectly yes they were.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

But one will always argue had Hamas not massacred 1,400 Jews on 07/10/23 the war wouldn’t have happened and everyone that’s so far died (25,000)
including these aid workers would all be still alive today.

And that’s a fact wether you like it or not so no although they weren't directly responsible for murdering these aid workers but indirectly yes they were.

Well if you want to talk bollocks then Israel is responsible because it started the 6 days war in 1967, which is when they invaded and occupied Gaza. (A bit like Putin did with the Ukraine, although he hasn’t cracked the occupation bit just yet).

An occupation that led to the creation of Hamas.

So ultimately Israel is responsible for 7/10. Using your logic.

Now I don’t actually believe that. But can you see how silly your argument is?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

have you addressed the point i've made or are you deliberately avoiding it. And wow even more. Have you not read my post #65? Go on, go and have a quick peak.

You're doing you usual deflection. Your post at #65 was good but it doesn't absolve you from answering the points being made.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Well if you want to talk bollocks then Israel is responsible because it started the 6 days war in 1967, which is when they invaded and occupied Gaza. (A bit like Putin did with the Ukraine, although he hasn’t cracked the occupation bit just yet).

An occupation that led to the creation of Hamas.

So ultimately Israel is responsible for 7/10. Using your logic.

Now I don’t actually believe that. But can you see how silly your argument is?

Now you are changing it to suit your agenda.
If Hitler wasn’t born or indeed didn't come to power 6 million Jews wouldn’t have been murdered.
If Putin wasn’t the president of Russia they wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine and 50,000 soldiers would still be alive to day.
The list is endless.
But Hamas are the guilty party here for what they did on that October Saturday morning and as a result 25,000 Palestinians have been killed because of them and do you honestly think they give one toss about them like the rest of the world does?

 

[Cuthbert]

This seriously impacts on my family. I have one close family member working for an Israeli armaments company in the UK; but my view is yes we should stop

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Now you are changing it to suit your agenda.
If Hitler wasn’t born or indeed didn't come to power 6 million Jews wouldn’t have been murdered.
If Putin wasn’t the president of Russia they wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine and 50,000 soldiers would still be alive to day.
The list is endless.
But Hamas are the guilty party here for what they did on that October Saturday morning and as a result 25,000 Palestinians have been killed because of them and do you honestly think they give one toss about them like the rest of the world does?

Wrong. Israel has gone beyond self-defence. That much is clear to the world. Why should you be different?

 

[SEASIDE2020]

To be added to the poll:


Is it fair that 20s should have to take on all the Britain haters on his Jacks ?

 

[1966_and_all_that]

To be added to the poll:


Is it fair that 20s should have to take on all the Britain haters on his Jacks ?

Who are these Britain haters?

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Wrong. Israel has gone beyond self-defence. That much is clear to the world. Why should you be different?

It’s not wrong it’s a fact why these aid workers and thousands of other innocent civilians have so far died in this conflict.

And to repeat myself again it’s all because of the barbaric Hamas attacks on innocent civilians on 07/10/23 .

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Wrong. Israel has gone beyond self-defence. That much is clear to the world. Why should you be different?

It’s not wrong it’s a fact why these aid workers and thousands of other innocent civilians have so far died in this conflict it’s a direct result of Hamas carrying out these barbaric attacks on innocent civilians on 07/10/23.

 

[SEASIDE2020]

Who are these Britain haters?

Without looking too deep, every fecker apart from Phil and 20s.

Apologies to anybody I've missed.

I'm not sure I was being overly serious 66, in fact I'm sure I wasn't and I'm also sure Britain was a better place when people were proud of being British and not apologising for being British.

Sorry for moving things away from the poll.

As you were.

 

[Wizaard]

just out of interest, did the extensive well planned military operation carried out by Hamas on 7/10 result in the deaths of many non-combatant civilians? Why didn't we stop trade and other associations with Iran, Russia and China who are countries supplying arms and deliberately putting obstacles in the way of maybe bringing an end to this war. It suits them to block any resolutions put forward by them at the meetings of the UN council.

We already have suspension of trading with Russia. Hadn't you noticed the war in Ukraine?

 

[20togo]

We already have suspension of trading with Russia. Hadn't you noticed the war in Ukraine?

good dellection. Russia supplies arms and support to Iran who supply support to Hamas.

 

[Wizaard]

But one will always argue had Hamas not massacred 1,400 Jews on 07/10/23 the war wouldn’t have happened and everyone that’s so far died (25,000)
including these aid workers would all be still alive today.

And that’s a fact wether you like it or not so no although they weren't directly responsible for murdering these aid workers but indirectly yes they were.

It's gone way beyond that now though. There's a justified response and there's what is happening now.

If Germany hadn't killed 6 million Jews in the 30s and 40s there wouldn't be an Israel, and that equally is now irrelevant.

 

[Wizaard]

good dellection. Russia supplies arms and support to Iran who supply support to Hamas.

It was you who said we should cease trading with Russia. We have.

No deflection at all.

 

[20togo]

Who are these Britain haters?

People on the left with their moral holier than thou crusades People who think Britain is responsible for the worlds ills past and present,