More flag nonesense

JJpool said:

Keir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers | Labour | The Guardian

Exclusive: Members say flag may alienate ethnic minority voters as some associate it with far right
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com

Might alienate minorities apparently as some associate the union jack with the 'far right'.

Laughable.

It's the countries flag FFS.
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Pathetic it really is. 🤬

It’ll be banned completely in a few years time replaced by a rainbow flag which will please a few.
 
If we can change our national flag to the same one as Palastine then we’d see a lot of people going through turmoil.

Within weeks you’d not see a 🇵🇸 within 10 miles of London.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Pathetic it really is. 🤬

It’ll be banned completely in a few years time replaced by a rainbow flag which will please a few.
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It's a fantastic flag of a great country with a proud history. 🇬🇧

Even what some consider the worst part of our history, actually ended with one of our proudest moments. Yet you don't often hear much about it these days as it doesn't suit the narrative of some.

 
JJpool said:

Keir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers | Labour | The Guardian

Exclusive: Members say flag may alienate ethnic minority voters as some associate it with far right
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com

Might alienate minorities apparently as some associate the union jack with the 'far right'.

Laughable.

It's the countries flag FFS.
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It’s a fuck ing flag FFS that’s been wrongfully adopted with the far right wankers. So if anyone’s to blame it’s them. Just a real shame they have made our national flag a symbol of the national front or whatever they are called.
 
JJpool said:
It's a fantastic flag of a great country with a proud history. 🇬🇧

Even what some consider the worst part of our history, actually ended with one of our proudest moments. Yet you don't often hear much about it these days as it doesn't suit the narrative of some.

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Wrong flag. It's the St George's flag he's talking about.
 
Sooty59 said:
It’s a fuck ing flag FFS that’s been wrongfully adopted with the far right wankers. So if anyone’s to blame it’s them. Just a real shame they have made our national flag a symbol of the national front or whatever they are called.
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It's the countries flag, doesn't matter who uses it, maybe of people used it more it wouldn't be associated with any one particular group.
 
JJpool said:
It's the countries flag, doesn't matter who uses it, maybe of people used it more it wouldn't be associated with any one particular group.
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I do love my country & don’t need someone waving a flag to reinforce it.
 
Come on lads/lasses/them/its and anyone else who posts, it's the Union Flag not the Union Jack. The jack is the bit at the top of the pole on which the flag should proudly fly.

In my mind Sir Kier should stick to his principles and tell these nerbe British where to get off. To give in to them would be a slap in the face for all those brave people who fought & in some cases died for this country under it.

IT IS NOT A FAR RIGHT FLAG IT IS OUR FLAG.
 
Curryman said:
Come on lads/lasses/them/its and anyone else who posts, it's the Union Flag not the Union Jack. The jack is the bit at the top of the pole on which the flag should proudly fly.

In my mind Sir Kier should stick to his principles and tell these nerbe British where to get off. To give in to them would be a slap in the face for all those brave people who fought & in some cases died for this country under it.

IT IS NOT A FAR RIGHT FLAG IT IS OUR FLAG.
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Then perhaps it would be preferable for it not to be appropriated by any political party for election purposes.
 
JJpool said:
It's a fantastic flag of a great country with a proud history. 🇬🇧

Even what some consider the worst part of our history, actually ended with one of our proudest moments. Yet you don't often hear much about it these days as it doesn't suit the narrative of some.

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Not too sure we can be proud of all of our history.

The British Empire (plenty of atrocities carried out by the British)

Partition of India (Knocked up on the back of a fag packet, over lunch)

The Black and Tans (A total bunch of thugs)

Windrush Generation

The Post Office scandal.

Looking at the world through Red, White and Blue tinted glasses does not tell the whole story.
 
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Giro said:
Not too sure we can be proud of all of our history.

The British Empire (plenty of atrocities carried out by the British)

Partition of India (Knocked up on the back of a fag packet, over lunch)

The Black and Tans (A total bunch of thugs)

Windrush Generation

The Post Office scandal.

Looking at the world though Red, White and Blue tinted glasses does not tell the whole story.
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Oh come on Giro, we never invaded any of the following when we had an empire.
  • Andorra, Belarus, Bolivia, Burundi, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo, Republic of, Guatemala, Ivory Coast, Kyrgyzstan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Mali, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Mongolia, Paraguay, Sao Tome and Principe, Sweden,Tajikistan, Uzbekistan,Vatican City. 🤪
 
Giro said:
Not too sure we can be proud of all of our history.

The British Empire (plenty of atrocities carried out by the British)

Partition of India (Knocked up on the back of a fag packet, over lunch)

The Black and Tans (A total bunch of thugs)

Windrush Generation

The Post Office scandal.

Looking at the world though Red, White and Blue tinted glasses does not tell the whole story.
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Show me a country that hasn't done something in the past in different times, most countries have things that don't stand up to today's standards, but I'd say ending slavery, a worldwide trade not started by us and was the norm at the time, is a pretty good thing don't you?
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Then perhaps it would be preferable for it not to be appropriated by any political party for election purposes.
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So what flag do you think they should adopt then? The EU flag? A rainbow flag? A Nazi flag?
It’s our countries flag for Christs sake and adopting it shouldn’t be treated as a negative it should be worn/waved/adopted with pride. 🇬🇧🏴
 
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JJpool said:
Show me a country that hasn't done something in the past in different times, most countries have things that don't stand up to today's standards, but I'd say ending slavery, a worldwide trade not started by us and was the norm at the time, is a pretty good thing don't you?
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But we never ended slavery, just it's more traditional forms.

That's why I support Hope For Justice
 
I don’t love my country and I detest nationalism.

We do have one of the better flags if that’s what you’re into.
 
April13th1970 said:
But we never ended slavery, just it's more traditional forms.

That's why I support Hope For Justice
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It was ended as it was at the time, the slave trade. That doesn't mean there aren't elements of people committing illegal acts.

It was a crucial moment.

Something for Britain to be proud of.

Also...

'In 1833, Britain used 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves in the Empire. Britain borrowed such a large sum of money for the Slavery Abolition Act that it wasn't paid off until 2015. This means that living British citizens helped pay for the ending of the slave trade with their taxes.'
 
Giro said:
Not too sure we can be proud of all of our history.

The British Empire (plenty of atrocities carried out by the British)

Partition of India (Knocked up on the back of a fag packet, over lunch)

The Black and Tans (A total bunch of thugs)

Windrush Generation

The Post Office scandal.

Looking at the world though Red, White and Blue tinted glasses does not tell the whole story.
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Typical negative Nobber! 🙄
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
So what flag do you think they should adopt then? The EU flag? A rainbow flag? A Nazi flag?
It’s our countries flag for Christs sake and adopting it shouldn’t be treated as a negative it should be worn/waved/adopted with pride. 🇬🇧🏴
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Country's.
No, what I mean is that political parties should stick to other emblems. The Tories have a tree, New Labour had a rose. That's what I'm getting at.
 
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JJpool said:
It was ended as it was at the time, the slave trade. That doesn't mean there aren't elements of people committing illegal acts.

It was a crucial moment.

Something for Britain to be proud of.

Also...

'In 1833, Britain used 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves in the Empire. Britain borrowed such a large sum of money for the Slavery Abolition Act that it wasn't paid off until 2015. This means that living British citizens helped pay for the ending of the slave trade with their taxes.'
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Indeed, and that is where David Cameron's family, amongst others, derived their wealth.
 
JJpool said:
It was ended as it was at the time, the slave trade. That doesn't mean there aren't elements of people committing illegal acts.

It was a crucial moment.

Something for Britain to be proud of.

Also...

'In 1833, Britain used 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves in the Empire. Britain borrowed such a large sum of money for the Slavery Abolition Act that it wasn't paid off until 2015. This means that living British citizens helped pay for the ending of the slave trade with their taxes.'
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So basically the country’s tax payers took on a huge debt to pay massive sums to the British Citizens who owned slaves. We indebted ourselves until 2015 just so very rich people could be made even richer.

Is this what’s known as a redistribution of wealth? Taking money off the vast majority of citizens to pass to the already obscenely rich. Yep. Definitely something to be proud of.

End of the slave trade good. Paying money to slave owners as compensation bad. Easy really.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So basically the country’s tax payers took on a huge debt to pay massive sums to the British Citizens who owned slaves. We indebted ourselves until 2015 just so very rich people could be made even richer.

Is this what’s known as a redistribution of wealth? Taking money off the vast majority of citizens to pass to the already obscenely rich. Yep. Definitely something to be proud of.

End of the slave trade good. Paying money to slave owners as compensation bad. Easy really.
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If that's what it took I'd say it's worth it.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Any compensation should have gone to the freed slaves. Not the slave owners.

Tell you what. In future why don’t we just pay compensation to the criminals. Rather than to their victims?
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This debate has been had before on here which similar ridiculous claims. Tye slaves wouldn't have been freed without it.

Maybe they should have released a strongly worded statement telling them all off, that might have done it.

They did what was needed, it's funny how many on the left seem upset about it.
 
You are trying to turn Britain's involvement in the slave trade into something positive. You do realise that in the 18th century we were the largest slave trading nation, essentially we industrialised slavery.

When slavery was abolished 46000 Britons owned slaves. Abolition was of course correct but the whole endeavour should be remembered with shame and not with pride.

Paying off slave owners is morally dubious. If you think that slavery is evil, how can you justify rewarding the very people who profited from it?
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
You are trying to turn Britain's involvement in the slave trade into something positive. You do realise that in the 18th century we were the largest slave trading nation, essentially we industrialised slavery.

When slavery was abolished 46000 Britons owned slaves. Abolition was of course correct but the whole endeavour should be remembered with shame and not with pride.

Paying off slave owners is morally dubious. If you think that slavery is evil, how can you justify rewarding the very people who profited from it?
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You seem to be trying to ignore what we actually did by the end of it. It was a common worldwide practice and the Africans sold their own people into it.

Obviously it was wrong but Britain actually did something about it, against vested interests on a point of principle and spent blood and money to stop it.

You have to remember the context of the times.

You have to live in the real world, not looking back with todays morals, if it meant the freedom of the slaves then does it matter, lives are more important than money.

Of course it would have been better if the money wasn't needed or went to the victims, but it didn't work like that, I'm guessing they wouldn't have freed them otherwise or without a fight involving a ridiculous amount of resources maybe.

The brightest people of that time clearly deemed payment was the way to go and you'll have to accept that. It worked.

Should be not be proud of Britain's involvement in ending it then?
 
JJpool said:
This debate has been had before on here which similar ridiculous claims. Tye slaves wouldn't have been freed without it.

Maybe they should have released a strongly worded statement telling them all off, that might have done it.

They did what was needed, it's funny how many on the left seem upset about it.
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Obviously our involvement in ending the slave trade is to be applauded but the reason you’re getting push back is because people can see what you’re actually trying to do.

And that’s dictate that the ONLY debate we should have on this topic is Britain’s efforts to end the slave trade. That we should ignore the fact that for many, many years this country was an active and enthusiastic participant in the industry.

Cancel culture at its worst. Obviously what we should be doing is looking at the whole picture, warts and all. Not selectively choosing the bits that paint us in a good light, and patting ourselves on the back before draping ourselves in the Union flag and delivering a rousing rendition of Rule Britannia.
 
JJpool said:
You seem to be trying to ignore what we actually did by the end of it. It was a common worldwide practice and the Africans sold their own people into it.

Obviously it was wrong but Britain actually did something about it, against vested interests on a point of principle and spent blood and money to stop it.

You have to remember the context of the times.

You have to live in the real world, not looking back with todays morals, if it meant the freedom of the slaves then does it matter, lives are more important than money.

Of course it would have been better if the money wasn't needed or went to the victims, but it didn't work like that, I'm guessing they wouldn't have freed them otherwise or without a fight involving a ridiculous amount of resources maybe.

The brightest people of that time clearly deemed payment was the way to go and you'll have to accept that. It worked.

Should be not be proud of Britain's involvement in ending it then?
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If you feel proud of our role in ending the slave trade then you perhaps need to think a bit more critically about it.

Slavery has of course always existed and still exists today. However between the 16th and early 19th century we British industrialised and massively expanded slavery. Essentially we made it into a highly profitable business. Slave routes were established, specially adapted slave boats were built to order and plantations were founded and established. A typical slave boat would go UK, Africa, Americas, UK. Slaves taken out, goods bought back. And in the main, all by us British. Many British people and organisations became very wealthy because they owned slaves and participated enthusiastically in the trade. Many of the fine buildings that you can see in our cities today were built with money earned from the business. Essentially built with blood money from the lives of slaves. It is not a legacy that we should feel proud of and understandably we tend not to dwell on this part of our history. But it all happened and it was us British who did most of it.

If we hadn't done all this previously then we would never have had the need to stop and criminalise slavery. And by paying compensation to slave owners it shows that our parliament only abolished slavery with an element of moral ambiguity. If we were the moral crusaders, as you would have it and want to feel proud about, compensation would not have been paid. As is usually the case, the decision to pay compensation was IMO about power. The powerful being compensated by the poor for their part in trading human beings. To feel proud of any part of this episode in our history shows a sort of blindness to historical reality.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Obviously our involvement in ending the slave trade is to be applauded but the reason you’re getting push back is because people can see what you’re actually trying to do.

And that’s dictate that the ONLY debate we should have on this topic is Britain’s efforts to end the slave trade. That we should ignore the fact that for many, many years this country was an active and enthusiastic participant in the industry.

Cancel culture at its worst. Obviously what we should be doing is looking at the whole picture, warts and all. Not selectively choosing the bits that paint us in a good light, and patting ourselves on the back before draping ourselves in the Union flag and delivering a rousing rendition of Rule Britannia.
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I'm pointing out an amazing thing we did that no-one else did.

All countries have things in their past from a different timet that wouldn't be acceptable today.

People go on about guilt etc yet how far back do you go, the vikings, the Romans, should we feel bad about them still, or is the past the past?

If you look at my first post I didn't say what you've just made up at all, which is no surprise you'd try and twist it.

"Even what some consider the worst part of our history, actually ended with one of our proudest moments. Yet you don't often hear much about it these days as it doesn't suit the narrative of some."

The narrative on this today is white people bad shoild feel guilty, British people bad, when infact it was a worldwide trade done by all races and peoples and well established in Africa well before we got there. Add to that the work we did in ending it, when it was common and not even frowned upon and it went against massive vested interests and financial gain.

That's the point I was making, you only seem to get one side. So of course we should be proud of the countries history as all countries have things that eouldnt be remotely acceptable in todays world, yet not many have such achievements in shaping the world positively.
 
JJpool said:
I'm pointing out an amazing thing we did that no-one else did.

All countries have things in their past from a different timet that wouldn't be acceptable today.

People go on about guilt etc yet how far back do you go, the vikings, the Romans, should we feel bad about them still, or is the past the past?

If you look at my first post I didn't say what you've just made up at all, which is no surprise you'd try and twist it.

"Even what some consider the worst part of our history, actually ended with one of our proudest moments. Yet you don't often hear much about it these days as it doesn't suit the narrative of some."

The narrative on this today is white people bad shoild feel guilty, British people bad, when infact it was a worldwide trade done by all races and peoples and well established in Africa well before we got there. Add to that the work we did in ending it, when it was common and not even frowned upon and it went against massive vested interests and financial gain.

That's the point I was making, you only seem to get one side. So of course we should be proud of the countries history as all countries have things that eouldnt be remotely acceptable in todays world, yet not many have such achievements in shaping the world positively.
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In short, what you are saying is that we can feel pride in the 'good' things that we did in our past as a country. But we shouldn't feel shame about the bad things that we did as a country because everyone else was doing it [they weren't btw]
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
If you feel proud of our role in ending the slave trade then you perhaps need to think a bit more critically about it.

Slavery has of course always existed and still exists today. However between the 16th and early 19th century we British industrialised and massively expanded slavery. Essentially we made it into a highly profitable business. Slave routes were established, specially adapted slave boats were built to order and plantations were founded and established. A typical slave boat would go UK, Africa, Americas, UK. Slaves taken out, goods bought back. And in the main, all by us British. Many British people and organisations became very wealthy because they owned slaves and participated enthusiastically in the trade. Many of the fine buildings that you can see in our cities today were built with money earned from the business. Essentially built with blood money from the lives of slaves. It is not a legacy that we should feel proud of and understandably we tend not to dwell on this part of our history. But it all happened and it was us British who did most of it.

If we hadn't done all this previously then we would never have had the need to stop and criminalise slavery. And by paying compensation to slave owners it shows that our parliament only abolished slavery with an element of moral ambiguity. If we were the moral crusaders, as you would have it and want to feel proud about, compensation would not have been paid. As is usually the case, the decision to pay compensation was IMO about power. The powerful being compensated by the poor for their part in trading human beings. To feel proud of any part of this episode in our history shows a sort of blindness to our history.
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See other reply.

Also it wasn't just us it was many European countries and only because of the advances in technology was it so efficient. Maybe you should do a bit more research as there were many other doing it and it was widespread and accepted.

Clearly not a good time looking back but a standard of the world unfortunately.

You can't look back on history with todays eyes, it just doesn't work, but it only does when people want to shape narratives for today when people suddenly want reparations.

Yet we've been invaded countless times and atrocities committed upon Britain, yet you don't see the same calls for reparations there. Viking Romans, French etc etc.

It's nonesense and time to move on.
 
Only on AVFTT can someone link the cross of Saint George with slavery and in an anti political negative way. 🙄

Mind you there’s a few on here who dismiss our beautiful country altogether so no surprises really.😔
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
In short, what you are saying is that we can feel pride in the 'good' things that we did in our past as a country. But we shouldn't feel shame about the bad things that we did as a country because everyone else was doing it [they weren't btw]
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I'm not saying we should we celebrating the dark times, however some context is required in that it was the norm.

We should be proud that we the nation that came to the realisation that it was badly wrong and spent blood and money to stop it.

Even the Africans didn't want to stop it, the ones selling their own people into it.

So yes when looking back at times hundreds of years ago you have to have a certain level of understanding of what was acceptable in those days.
 
JJpool said:
I'm pointing out an amazing thing we did that no-one else did.

All countries have things in their past from a different timet that wouldn't be acceptable today.

People go on about guilt etc yet how far back do you go, the vikings, the Romans, should we feel bad about them still, or is the past the past?

If you look at my first post I didn't say what you've just made up at all, which is no surprise you'd try and twist it.

"Even what some consider the worst part of our history, actually ended with one of our proudest moments. Yet you don't often hear much about it these days as it doesn't suit the narrative of some."

The narrative on this today is white people bad shoild feel guilty, British people bad, when infact it was a worldwide trade done by all races and peoples and well established in Africa well before we got there. Add to that the work we did in ending it, when it was common and not even frowned upon and it went against massive vested interests and financial gain.

That's the point I was making, you only seem to get one side. So of course we should be proud of the countries history as all countries have things that eouldnt be remotely acceptable in todays world, yet not many have such achievements in shaping the world positively.
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Ah yes. Silly me. I’d forgotten that white people were the real victims of slavery.

By white guilt what you actually mean is that we’re being asked to look at and acknowledge the extent this country was involved in, and benefited, from slavery. A truth that’s been washed under the carpet by people insisting the only thing we should talk about is the abolition movement.

As laudable as that movement was, it’s only part of the narrative and as I’ve already said, we should be looking at the whole picture. Not just the bits that reflect well on us.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Only on AVFTT can someone link the cross of Saint George with slavery and in an anti political negative way. 🙄

Mind you there’s a few on here who dismiss our beautiful country altogether so no surprises really.😔
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It was JJ who raised the topic of slavery. Others are just responding to his very narrow and selective point of view.

Free speech and all that.
 
The Union Flag is part of our history, changing it will mean nothing.
Of course we always get the anti Union Flag people who try to make a statement.
Personally I'm proud of the flag and proud to be British.
Why do some people always want to change things they don't like but many millions do like?
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
Ah yes. Silly me. I’d forgotten that white people were the real victims of slavery.

By white guilt what you actually mean is that we’re being asked to look at and acknowledge the extent this country was involved in, and benefited, from slavery. A truth that’s been washed under the carpet by people insisting the only thing we should talk about is the abolition movement.

As laudable as that movement was, it’s only part of the narrative and as I’ve already said, we should be looking at the whole picture. Not just the bits that reflect well on us.
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Did I say that or have you just made it up again, you made it up. All races have been victims of it and of atrocities. But Africa suffered badly in that time mainly because of their own people, which many want to skip over,but also those seeking to take advantage of it.

Ahh so do you believe we should be guilty for things done hundreds of years ago.

So again how far are we to go back in this? I presume you're claiming against the vikings, let me know how that goes.

Once again you've ignored what I said initially, I haven't said to ignore what was done only to acknowledge the times in which it happened and the mindset of the world in which it was accepted ans the effort it took to go against that and stop it.

You claim all angles should be heard yet that's not the sort of narratives we do hear, only the bad. It's funny when people learn what we did do in stopping it, like in the video posted, they are surprised, as they haven't heard that angle being pushed by those with agendas these days, as it doesn't fit, so if any side is being cut out it's that.
 
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