Moral vacuum

B

basilrobbie

Guest
Hard to argue with this, in some ways. It just goes to show how far ahead of their time BST have always been in pointing to the wider malaise at the top of the game.

www.bbc.co.uk

Premier League clubs in 'moral vacuum'

Premier League clubs are in a "moral vacuum" and players should be first to sacrifice salaries during the coronavirus pandemic, say politicians.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Makes my skin crawl that clubs making enormous profits and paying players millions and millions of pounds per year, can expect the tax payer to help them save what would be more than covered by a voluntary wage reduction by players and agents.
 
If a few of those players gave just one weeks pay it would amount to £millions.
£2/300,000 A WEEK, some of them. 😕
I admit that there are one or two who have already made big donations, but imagine the amount if every one earning more than, say £50,0000 a week gave a meaningful donation..
 
I commented on this yesterday with regards to Spurs and Daniel Levy.

My suggestion would be that the players need to get over their shyness and hiding behind anonymity and come out and publicly declare what they are doing/contributing to help. They need to be seen what they are doing. For instance, Spurs have 550 non footballing staff on the payroll, No doubt the vast majority of those, say 500 are not on great money, then within reason probably 20 players could put in 5 grand a week to pay these 500 staff.
Dav pretty much covers it.
 
Absolutely a moral vacuum and its not as if the players wouldnt end up getting paid anyway.Its the same greed that's driving the proposed European Super League and taking football to a corporate hell in a handcart; pricing out regular fans out of the game as they go.

The whole essence of the football Saturday has been eroded for a while and this might just put the tin lid on it.
 
l would like to think and hope that many players are doing something to help. A possible sort of negative that I can think of is that because we have such a high percentage of overseas players it may well be a case that some of these players would rather help those in their country of origin. And to a point that is understandable. I think it's been well reported that tennis players like Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are donating/do something to/for people of their own country. Not sure if there are any poor people in Switzerland though.
 
20togo said:
l would like to think and hope that many players are doing something to help. A possible sort of negative that I can think of is that because we have such a high percentage of overseas players it may well be a case that some of these players would rather help those in their country of origin. And to a point that is understandable. I think it's been well reported that tennis players like Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are donating/do something to/for people of their own country. Not sure if there are any poor people in Switzerland though.
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Agreed but one of the underpinning considerations with a football club is its link to the community,where for instance Vincent Kompany did much to satisfy that in every way when he was at Man City.

It might also raise the question of taxation if the monies aren't going into British coffers.No idea how it works but a few higher profile players abroad have been the subject of tax evasion investigations.
 
Agree Plums, it's all about the individual. Some players come here and fully integrate into the British way of life even remaining here after their careers are over. For others it's just a stopping point to pick up the big bucks before they move on. The second of those isn't necessarily wrong though.
 
There's something very wrong when those best paid have their full income protected while those close to the breadline in some cases, are cut asunder and left to rely on the state.

This whole episode has made it starkly clear just where some individuals sit on the moral spectrum and I think it's incumbent on all of us to remember who after this.

For some, I've changed my opinion on them for the better as well. I don't think we can tar all of football and indeed business in general with the same brush.

For others, I know for sure that I won't use their business again and I'd think carefully about boycotting some clubs if we played them. Be careful what you sow, as the proverb goes.
 
20togo said:
Agree Plums, it's all about the individual. Some players come here and fully integrate into the British way of life even remaining here after their careers are over. For others it's just a stopping point to pick up the big bucks before they move on. The second of those isn't necessarily wrong though.
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No its not wrong but it does break with tradition and how football began in its formative years.
Essentially its now more like the NFL and we have customers instead of supporters,and a mile away from the old days.
 
Of course it's easy to pick on high profile football, but there's plenty of others in the entertainment industry on or who have mega money. Actors, musicians to name just a couple.
 
I get where your coming from
like football[most sports and life ]the top 10% get90% of the money
ask a squad player at most clubs below the 2nd tier and they will need wages for mortgages bills etc just like everyday folk.
as for other sports the lower end of the wage bracket really do do it for the love of their sport.
same in other entertainment spheres I would imagine
 
I'm not saying it's right or wrong but when I started shifts at my place of work my lifestyle changed dramatically.
I could afford more expensive things and go on better holidays.

In the same vein a professional footballer who earns extortionate amounts of money will live the lifestyle that that money affords.
His mortgage will be in line with his contract at the club, he won't be driving around in a Ford fiesta will he? Itll be the best money can buy. Also the player sometimes helps his friends and family who got him to the position he's in now.
So nice cars for cousins, a big house for Mum and Dad, a nice flat for brother, a new clubhouse for his old football club. Paternity for the kid he wants no one to find out about!!

We think they're on astronomical amounts of money because we can only dream of having that kind of cash, it's the NORM for them.

Yes there will be some who can afford it but why stop with sportsmen and women?
Actors, TV stars, wealthy businessmen/women or even US!
 
Why are the top earners not on 80% of their salary capped off at about £2.5 K per month? isn't that what the government have come out with. They'll have to manage just like anybody else whose work is not essential. Or an I missing something?
 
These footballers are the epitomy of libertarian capitalism: I'll do what I want, how I want, when I want, without restriction and subject to no laws that matter. They have no interest in others and see themselves as being above all. The truth is that they are truly inconsequential, with limited intellect (on the whole), and no morality. They should be shunned, ignored and despised. The world owes them nothing.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
These footballers are the epitomy of libertarian capitalism: I'll do what I want, how I want, when I want, without restriction and subject to no laws that matter. They have no interest in others and see themselves as being above all. The truth is that they are truly inconsequential, with limited intellect (on the whole), and no morality. They should be shunned, ignored and despised. The world owes them nothing.
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Understand the point but think it's way too much of a generalisation for my liking. Sure, there's a lot of footballers out there on big big money but there's also a lot of them with decent morals when it comes to things like this. That's why I make the point earlier about hering from them.
 
The top earners in Spain and Italy are fudging there wages for three months and aren’t even arsed about it. Why can’t the ones I’m the UK do the same?
 
Dewster said:
The top earners in Spain and Italy are fudging there wages for three months and aren’t even arsed about it. Why can’t the ones I’m the UK do the same?
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You'd like to think something is going on behind the scenes with regards to something like that.
 
I've cited a book on here before 'Can we have our Football back?' - in it, the author interviews a Premier League player (anonymously) who says, that whilst some players are greedy as, the majority are embarrassed by what they earn and that some (a fair few according to him) even wish they earned less as they reach a point where the money is just useless to them. As said above, the player cites agents as a massive issue.

It's also insane the way the wages have risen - He compares the top earners pre premier league and the top earners now. Even in the early 90s there were top flight players earning 'normal-ish' wages - wages that seemed normal for a 'skilled trade' with a short earning potential.

Now, we've just hit this insane point. where the wages bear no relation even to the money the club recieves through the gate. The figures are such that we can't even concieve of that wealth.

At the same time, we all bay for the latest signings and for the club to 'show ambition' - We discuss signing in terms of money - x is 'never a million pound player' or 'at least a 30 million pound player' and we berate our teams for 'letting players go' and not 'pushing the boat out for them'
 
Its a tricky one.
Professional Footballers on the whole are paid well. I think it would be fair morally for most of them to take a pay cut. Im sure all those in the prem could take a 50% cut & many in the championship . Below that its a rather different ball game.

People in other forms of entertainment will not be getting paid as films, concerts etc have been pulled. The vast majority do not have long contracts with guaranteed income like footballers. Not even the top 1% percent in these industries make very good money. 99% of actors, comedians & musicians struggle to get by just like everyone.

Can the government impose rules where top earning footballers pay is docked to help other club employees? I doubt it as it could be argued they pay high amounts of tax so why should they? The football authorities , PFA & clubs could certainly give 'guidance'.
I wonder if any insurance policies have covered this? Obviously clubs take out policies to help cover wages if the player cannot play through long term injury, However a situation such as this is unprecedented.
 
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When the clubs put their claim in to pay staff 80% of wages they should be told to get stuffed by HMRC.
If the staff have take a 20 percent cut that should be for all players,coaches,manager and the tea lady then and only then should you be able to go for money from the Govt.
Lower league club would need help but they very rich clubs at the top of the pyramid wouldn't.
 
Has any thought of the situation where people are earning money in this country (Pep Guardiola) and then funding their versions of the health service in their own countries?
 
Pep is on over 15 million a year he gave over less than a months salary.
The club should be asking him to take a 20 percent cut to pay for the staff not us as tax payers it's distasteful.
 
I can acknowledge wizzers point that nobody knows an individuals financial commitments, but it’s hard to imagine that someone earning tens of thousands per week can’t afford some sort of salary sacrifice in order to ensure that people on close to minimum wage have their ‘lifestyle’ maintained.

The top 300 earners at my company have all taken pay cuts of varying degrees; the CEO has taken a 50% cut. I don’t feel sorry for him or think he’s being ‘brave’ because in reality his basic salary is close to £1m and he earns around 10 times that amount in bonus and shares. When you consider that level of wealth it simply becomes a point of doing the right thing. Nothing more.
 
Many footballers have zero grasp of reality, particularly those at the top level. For all the badge kissing and empty statements, it’s about them, their lifestyle and their ego. There are players who do have a moral compass, so let’s hope!

Ashley and Levy are a disgrace, effectively getting UK taxpayers to subsidise the wages of lower paid staff, in order to maintain 100% salaries to players.

The enormity of what is happening has yet to impact here. In Spain and elsewhere it has, so perhaps the right thing will be done. I really don’t know with the EPL, the TV money has just made the game morally bankrupt.

Football generally is not showing itself in a good light, including the non-league clubs moaning about the season ending. There is little grasp of the bigger picture and if the penny doesn’t drop, there could be a fan backlash.

Fans though are part of the problem, as top clubs know that they’ll quickly return and Sky / BT know that subscriptions will continue.

Maybe it’s time for fans of top clubs to send a message when this is over. As we’ve seen, fan power can have a huge impact. Wouldn’t it be great to see EPL fans boycotting en-masse.
 
20togo said:
Understand the point but think it's way too much of a generalisation for my liking. Sure, there's a lot of footballers out there on big big money but there's also a lot of them with decent morals when it comes to things like this. That's why I make the point earlier about hering from them.
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Accepted.
 
The plan for the future would seems fairly simple. Tax must be drastically raised for anyone earning over a million a year. We wouldn't be have this argument if these individuals (whoever they are) contributed in this fashion all the time. As long as that ** Boris doesn't spend it on a bridge to Dublin or some other imbecilic idea.
 
I've just been reading that in the States the NFL family have donated over $35 million to fight COVID-19, including almost three and a half million dollars to fund research. This from a League which EVERY year raises money for armed forces welfare charities and organisations supporting women (particularly) through breast cancer. Our ruling bodies look dismal by comparison.
 
basilrobbie said:
I've just been reading that in the States the NFL family have donated over $35 million to fight COVID-19, including almost three and a half million dollars to fund research. This from a League which EVERY year raises money for armed forces welfare charities and organisations supporting women (particularly) through breast cancer. Our ruling bodies look dismal by comparison.
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Robbie - While there is no doubt that the NFL give generously to charity and that all major sports in the US treat charity foundations and trusts etc etc very seriously, I am not sure that $35m donated by the NFL in respect of COVID-19 will look particularly special compared with the charitable efforts of the Premier League and the Premier League teams who all make significent contributions to charity and work closely with charities.

Some teams will do more than others but I imagine football (regulatory bodies and clubs) in the UK and other non US countries compares well against most other sports.

It cetainly can't be denied that the US sports do so such for much for charities under the leadership of Donald Trump mind.

In fact, given that you often comment on the need for balance on AVFTT, I am surprised that you failed to mention the huge contributions made to charities and work to support charities by the Trump organisation over the years.
 
BigHandsOliverKahn said:
The PFA are parasites. Everything they ever do is based on sucking every last penny out of football. No surprise to me how they are telling their members to behave at this time.
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Exactly and all from the leadership of Gordon Taylor who's made a fortune out of running it.

Interesting to see that the Belgians have closed their leagues and awarded the Championship to one of its clubs.That could be the domino falling right across Europe.
www.bbc.co.uk

Club Bruges champions as league cancelled

The Belgian Pro League becomes the first major European league to be cancelled because of the coronavirus pandemic.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
Robbie - While there is no doubt that the NFL give generously to charity and that all major sports in the US treat charity foundations and trusts etc etc very seriously, I am not sure that $35m donated by the NFL in respect of COVID-19 will look particularly special compared with the charitable efforts of the Premier League and the Premier League teams who all make significent contributions to charity and work closely with charities.

Some teams will do more than others but I imagine football (regulatory bodies and clubs) in the UK and other non US countries compares well against most other sports.

It cetainly can't be denied that the US sports do so such for much for charities under the leadership of Donald Trump mind.

In fact, given that you often comment on the need for balance on AVFTT, I am surprised that you failed to mention the huge contributions made to charities and work to support charities by the Trump organisation over the years.
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The $35m is a one-off response to the current crisis and quite apart from the institutional charitable work that every NFL franchise does 365 days of the year. You're not seriously comparing the response of our clubs and players thus far with that level of generosity, are you? You can't have been paying very close attention if you are.

Similarly, US sports were doing a lot for charities long before Trump came on the scene. You're not trying to claim he deserves some credit, are you? That's taking adoration a bit far, even for you.

As for his charitable works (such as they are), I wouldn't know. They don't excuse his reprehensible behaviour in many other areas.
 
The NFL have a salary cap and as such the two leagues arent really comparable in this respect,but maybe have more scope for charitable donations.

Not really bothered about what Trump does or doesn't do but charities seem to be the first victim* of the financial aspect of this crisis.
 
deary said:
Its a tricky one.
Professional Footballers on the whole are paid well. I think it would be fair morally for most of them to take a pay cut. Im sure all those in the prem could take a 50% cut & many in the championship . Below that its a rather different ball game.

People in other forms of entertainment will not be getting paid as films, concerts etc have been pulled. The vast majority do not have long contracts with guaranteed income like footballers. Not even the top 1% percent in these industries make very good money. 99% of actors, comedians & musicians struggle to get by just like everyone.

Can the government impose rules where top earning footballers pay is docked to help other club employees? I doubt it as it could be argued they pay high amounts of tax so why should they? The football authorities , PFA & clubs could certainly give 'guidance'.
I wonder if any insurance policies have covered this? Obviously clubs take out policies to help cover wages if the player cannot play through long term injury, However a situation such as this is unprecedented.
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I'm not sure the Government should set an example through footballers. They'd do a lot better by citing the likes of Branson with £15 billion in the bank who's laid off staff and wants subsidies for his businesses.
 
basilrobbie said:
The $35m is a one-off response to the current crisis and quite apart from the institutional charitable work that every NFL franchise does 365 days of the year. You're not seriously comparing the response of our clubs and players thus far with that level of generosity, are you? You can't have been paying very close attention if you are.

Similarly, US sports were doing a lot for charities long before Trump came on the scene. You're not trying to claim he deserves some credit, are you? That's taking adoration a bit far, even for you.

As for his charitable works (such as they are), I wouldn't know. They don't excuse his reprehensible behaviour in many other areas.
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Robbie - I was bored.

You are right about one thing though, that's that I don't think Trump deserves any credit for the contribution of US sports to charity.

I also don't think he does that much for charity above what he has to do.

Back in the UK, I am sure the contribution to charities and work with charities of football clubs and football bodies is far greater than most other sports.

Anyway moving on, I was having a corona clear out today and came across an old AVFTT from 2007 containing an article from your goodself.
 
Wizaard said:
I'm not sure the Government should set an example through footballers. They'd do a lot better by citing the likes of Branson with £15 billion in the bank who's laid off staff and wants subsidies for his businesses.
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This.
 
Just heard they are waiting guidance from the PFA. I suppose to some point that's what they have to do for legal reasons but godammmit, just get on and do it. Or do something. We need to hear from you - the nation is waiting.
 
20togo said:
Just heard they are waiting guidance from the PFA. I suppose to some point that's what they have to do for legal reasons but godammmit, just get on and do it. Or do something. We need to hear from you - the nation is waiting.
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You are write the nation is waiting but the government should not be getting away with jumping on the bandwagon and singling out footballers.

Although to be fair, the action of the clubs themselves has not done the players any favours.
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
You are write the nation is waiting but the government should not be getting away with jumping on the bandwagon and singling out footballers.

Although to be fair, the action of the clubs themselves has not done the players any favours.
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It wouldn't be like this Government to jump on any passing bandwagon. Oh no.
 
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