Kier not messing about

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

It’s a systemic problem. In a nationalised industry we have the tension between policy and its delivery entirely owned by the state agencies of government, civil service and public sector.
And when you understand the operating cultures of all those moving parts, it’s of little surprise to see inertia, blame and avoidance becoming the dominant outcomes.
And some wonder why other countries have fared better. They don’t have a government, a Dept of Health, the NHS in all its forms and specifically Public Health England, all hindering the delivery of the frontline clinical staff.
And some want to see public sector rewards go up

 

[20togo]

Don't really understand a word of that but that's my problem not yours.

 

[Lala]

It was a one sided fact that had no context. Some 'clinicians' ( who...err...work for the NHS) are claiming it was pressure from Govt. bodies to do it. Let's see. These things tend to come out in the wash.

Whereas your reply was a one sided approach, devoid of even one fact which added no context whatsoever to the subject matter and threw in another level of blatant assumption.
Argh, much better then

 

[Scaramanga]

Yeah, it's about time that someone gave that Mother Nature a good kicking for this.... clearly our global warming attempts have not put the b*tch in her place yet - let's have her!

I rest my case

 

[southshorepool]

Whereas your reply was a one sided approach, devoid of even one fact which added no context whatsoever to the subject matter and threw in another level of blatant assumption.
Argh, much better then

Did you actually watch PMQ's? I can only quote what he said. Rolls eyes.

 

[basilrobbie]

PMQ's suits Starmer down to the ground, at the moment. It will be interesting to see whether he flourishes when it (eventually) goes back to being a theatrical bear pit.

Johnson has some of the answer in his own gift. He has to prepare better, and to take a much firmer grasp of the detail of his brief. I can see that his health doesn't help at the moment, but he could still do much better.

Starmer, for his part, has to ignore some of the fawning over how he has started and concentrate on the many problems he still faces. Being in Opposition at a time of crisis is a difficult brief, and he still presides over a pretty rotten edifice. Interesting times lie ahead.

 

[seasidepaddle]

Starmer has been superb in the past 4 weeks, even the most staunch Tory must know that in their heart of hearts. The government have come up short through this crisis - the data is now undeniable - and worse than that, they've lied and manipulated the stats at the daily briefings as it suits them.

Long way to go, anything can happen on the campaign trail / when an election is round the corner, but right now Starmer looks and talks like a legitimate candidate for PM and certainly acts more like a leader of this country than the current incumbent, who was perhaps better suited to hosting Have I Got News For You.

 

[tangerinenotorange]

Starmer has been superb in the past 4 weeks, even the most staunch Tory must know that in their heart of hearts. The government have come up short through this crisis - the data is now undeniable - and worse than that, they've lied and manipulated the stats at the daily briefings as it suits them.

Long way to go, anything can happen on the campaign trail / when an election is round the corner, but right now Starmer looks and talks like a legitimate candidate for PM and certainly acts more like a leader of this country than the current incumbent, who was perhaps better suited to hosting Have I Got News For You.

It's so easy to be critical instead of constructive. Has Starmer made any positive proposition? I can't think of any so far other than his initial claimed intention to assist the government in striving to overcome the pandemic, which he then proceeded not to do.,,

 

[Wizaard]

People on here just love to Boris bash for the sake of it. It’s interesting that nobody seems to want to blame the real culprit behind all this. Suppose it just doesn’t suit your agenda.

Who's responsible, or accountable, for what goes on here? Good job we got Brexit done otherwise you'd be blaming the EU.

ABB Anyone but Boris.

It was, and still is, his job to see what's going on world wide and do what's best to keep this country's citizens safe. By failing to react quickly enough, the virus got in far wider than it needed to and caused far more deaths than were necessary. It's not like we couldn't see what was going on elsewhere.

The Prime Minister is ultimately accountable by nature of his role. That's not Boris bashing per se, it's calling out failings of the man in the role, a role he is failing to live up to.

 

[seasidepaddle]

It's so easy to be critical instead of constructive. Has Starmer made any positive proposition? I can't think of any so far other than his initial claimed intention to assist the government in striving to overcome the pandemic, which he then proceeded not to do.,,

You're right, it's damn easy to be critical when we are the worst country in Europe - and second worst in the world - by all measures in the biggest test that this government will face. The job of the opposition is to question those in charge - it's not Starmer's fault that Bojo has no answers. The league tables have been printed and we are relegation fodder.

And - as Wizard points out - we had the undoubted advantage of 4 weeks on the rest of EU to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

You're right, it's damn easy to be critical when we are the worst country in Europe - and second worst in the world - by all measures in the biggest test that this government will face. The job of the opposition is to question those in charge - it's not Starmer's fault that Bojo has no answers.

Care to share those measures? I’d be interested to know which ones we can all use

 

[seasidepaddle]

Care to share those measures? I’d be interested to know which ones we can all use

For starters:

Total confirmed deaths
Total confirmed cases
Ratio of deaths to cases
Total relevant tests when it mattered most
Good quality PPE for healthcare workers when it mattered most

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

For starters:

Total confirmed deaths
Total confirmed cases
Ratio of deaths to cases
Total relevant tests when it mattered most

Oh the selective ones then. I thought you had some proper numbers that would have been helpful. Ones that adjust for population size, demographics, income levels, population density, total deaths against this time last year, deaths not classified as ‘COVID related’. If you find another country measuring the same things as ours that’s a good start to back up comparisons. At the moment it has played into the government’s hands to have the figures rubbished.

 

[Scaramanga]

Who's responsible, or accountable, for what goes on here? Good job we got Brexit done otherwise you'd be blaming the EU.

ABB Anyone but Boris.

It was, and still is, his job to see what's going on world wide and do what's best to keep this country's citizens safe. By failing to react quickly enough, the virus got in far wider than it needed to and caused far more deaths than were necessary. It's not like we couldn't see what was going on elsewhere.

The Prime Minister is ultimately accountable by nature of his role. That's not Boris bashing per se, it's calling out failings of the man in the role, a role he is failing to live up to.

Does this go for every leader of every country in dire straights at the moment ? Or just the ones with The leaders that have a different political persuasion to you ? Last time I looked this problem is worldwide.

 

[seasidepaddle]

Oh the selective ones then. I thought you had some proper numbers that would have been helpful. Ones that adjust for population size, demographics, income levels, population density, total deaths against this time last year, deaths not classified as ‘COVID related’. If you find another country measuring the same things as ours that’s a good start to back up comparisons. At the moment it has played into the government’s hands to have the figures rubbished.

Not sure I'd call TOTAL CONFIRMED DEATHS & CASES as selective.

So you think they're doing a good job, then?

I'm actually not a labour voter (at least the past several elections) but I'm also not so far up Bojo's a*se to be able to see that the man is out of his depth.

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

Not sure I'd call TOTAL CONFIRMED DEATHS & CASES as selective.

So you think they're doing a good job, then?

I'm actually not a labour voter (at least the past several elections) but I'm also not so far up Bojo's a*se to be able to see that the man is out of his depth.

It is selective as the biggest populations may have the biggest outcomes and is not adjusted for underlying causes. We don’t know is my point. We have no idea how we really compare. I personally think our national response is very very poor. And bad stats have let the governments of many nations disguise their performance. And wriggle out, as ours are doing.
Considering how low risk this virus is to the vast majority of our population our whole approach has been inept. It’s shocking that so many have died unnecessarily. But I’m afraid we also aren’t the worst. We deserve to be though.

 

[Lala]

I think per capita is the ‘real’ stat we need to be looking at and we are nowhere near the worst. Infact that accolade now sits with Sweden.
If you don’t look at per capita you may aswell say that 100 deaths in a population of 1000 is worse than 49 deaths in a population of 50 people, for example. And that’s just nonsense and a crap perception and interpretation of statistics.

 

[RUSTY_2_STANDS]

It is selective as the biggest populations may have the biggest outcomes and is not adjusted for underlying causes. We don’t know is my point. We have no idea how we really compare. I personally think our national response is very very poor. And bad stats have let the governments of many nations disguise their performance. And wriggle out, as ours are doing.
Considering how low risk this virus is to the vast majority of our population our whole approach has been inept. It’s shocking that so many have died unnecessarily. But I’m afraid we also aren’t the worst. We deserve to be though.

We deserve to be? That's some remark to make.

 

[Wizaard]

Does this go for every leader of every country in dire straights at the moment ? Or just the ones with The leaders that have a different political persuasion to you ? Last time I looked this problem is worldwide.

Last time I looked some countries have acted quickly and decisively and minimised the impact despite being nearer to the source than we were. New Zealand is an obvious example. We chose not to do what they did. The choices are at the PM's door, no one else. With great power comes great responsibility, as Aladdin said.
That's why criticism is justified. Nothing to do with party politics.

 

[seasidepaddle]

I think per capita is the ‘real’ stat we need to be looking at and we are nowhere near the worst. Infact that accolade now sits with Sweden.
If you don’t look at per capita you may aswell say that 100 deaths in a population of 1000 is worse than 49 deaths in a population of 50 people, for example. And that’s just nonsense and a crap perception and interpretation of statistics.

I believe the stat you're referring to is actually Sweden is the worst over the past week. Our per capita deaths are still way worse than Sweden overall, and third worst in the world.

 

[Scaramanga]

Last time I looked some countries have acted quickly and decisively and minimised the impact despite being nearer to the source than we were. New Zealand is an obvious example. We chose not to do what they did. The choices are at the PM's door, no one else. With great power comes great responsibility, as Aladdin said.
That's why criticism is justified. Nothing to do with party politics.

hahahahaha I knew it, I should of put money on that reply. There’s a few reasons why you can’t really put New Zealand up against the UK regards this virus epidemic. Any others you can think of while you’re at it ?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I think per capita is the ‘real’ stat we need to be looking at and we are nowhere near the worst. Infact that accolade now sits with Sweden.
If you don’t look at per capita you may aswell say that 100 deaths in a population of 1000 is worse than 49 deaths in a population of 50 people, for example. And that’s just nonsense and a crap perception and interpretation of statistics.

Sweden are nowhere near the highest per capita... They were the subject of a rather dubious headline this last week, which was very misleading. Essentially it was the highest percapita death rate in a specific two week period.

Belgium are the worst as far as I know...

As it stands, Sweden have recorded 384 Deaths per 1M population, UK 531/1M, Spain 596/1M, Italy 535/1M, Belgium 793/1M

 

[20togo]

Last time I looked some countries have acted quickly and decisively and minimised the impact despite being nearer to the source than we were. New Zealand is an obvious example. We chose not to do what they did. The choices are at the PM's door, no one else. With great power comes great responsibility, as Aladdin said.
That's why criticism is justified. Nothing to do with party politics.

So Cats and KO's criticisms are nothing to do with party politics?
There's plenty of criticism that justified don't think too many would deny that but then there's those whose sole aim is to politically point score. The title of his thread tells you that. Also more evidence - just go back to the general election. Cat posts about seldom else.

 

[Lala]

Sweden are nowhere near the highest per capita... They were the subject of a rather dubious headline this last week, which was very misleading. Essentially it was the highest percapita death rate in a specific two week period.

Belgium are the worst as far as I know...

As it stands, Sweden have recorded 384 Deaths per 1M population, UK 531/1M, Spain 596/1M, Italy 535/1M, Belgium 793/1M

I stand corrected. It was that story I was reading this morning. Catching up on my news.
That said we are currently not at the top of the per capita tables, globally,which is my point.

 

[Dark_Side_of_the_Lune]

We deserve to be? That's some remark to make.

I don’t mean we as individuals I phrased that badly. I meant we as a nation as our collective assessment of risk, preparedness and emergency resilience will be shown to have been negligent. In that sense I’m surprised it hasn’t been worse. It could’ve been higher than it’s so far been reported.

 

[Wizaard]

So Cats and KO's criticisms are nothing to do with party politics?
There's plenty of criticism that justified don't think too many would deny that but then there's those whose sole aim is to politically point score. The title of his thread tells you that. Also more evidence - just go back to the general election. Cat posts about seldom else.

That's nonsense.

I'm criticising because it's valid and represents my own view. What others do is their business. If you think that this Government is blameless in all things, that's your prerogative, but it's also mine to question that, just as Keir Starmer is right, and has forced a u turn on Health surcharges. If he didn't criticise, that iniquitous tax would still be in place.

 

[Macseasider]

See the Tory Boys on here are all out fighting for the honour of Bozo Gummage today!

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Anyway, back to the O/P. Critical scrutiny of the Government's daft position on NHS workers, this week alone, has lead the families of those from abroad who have died in NHS service to be granted indefinite leave to stay, and the foreign NHS workers not to have to pay £600 odd per year to use the very NHS they are supporting.

This is politics at is best, highlighting the unfair and moving to change.

 

[RUSTY_2_STANDS]

And all the lefties on here, are still bitter, fuming and full of hatred since the election result. Socialism is dead comrades. Just accept it

 

[20togo]

That's nonsense.

I'm criticising because it's valid and represents my own view. What others do is their business. If you think that this Government is blameless in all things, that's your prerogative, but it's also mine to question that, just as Keir Starmer is right, and has forced a u turn on Health surcharges. If he didn't criticise, that iniquitous tax would still be in place.
[/QUOTE
]You really do need to re-read my post.
Point 1. My post was talking about Cat and KO. I simply refenced your post to point out the difference between criticism and point scoring.
Point 2 What part of my post saying that plenty of criticism is justified translates in to me saying the govt is blameless? I'd say none.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Just put a comma between conservative and labour. It then makes perfect sense.

I still like 'Conservatives labour'...which they do, badly.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

And all the lefties on here, are still bitter, fuming and full of hatred since the election result. Socialism is dead comrades. Just accept it

Ooohhhhh Rishiiii!!!

Any chance of some good old fashioned socialist state aid? A bit like back in 2008.

Cheers Old Chap

 

[Kurtan]

Socialism is dead?
Are you sure ? have you been watching any of this crisis

 

[Archibald Knox]

Boris is simply playing a cynical game of Good Cop / Bad Cop with Priti Patel. He gets Patel onto the podium to make the nasty announcements, such as that non-Brit NHS staff have to pay £624/yr to use the health service. Then he waits to see how it goes down with the public and if it gets a dreadful reception he takes the credit himself for reversing the decision and therefore shows us all he is “compassionate”. I am surprised you lot can’t see that, it’s obvious.

 

[RUSTY_2_STANDS]

Socialism is dead?
Are you sure ? have you been watching any of this crisis

Yes I'm absolutely sure. It's as dead as a dodo. As Margaret Thatcher famously said 'the problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money'

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

I still like 'Conservatives labour'...which they do, badly.

It should be 'Conservatives' Labour'
but then you'd end up with three apostrophes which would look shit!

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

Bozo is simply playing a cynical game of Good Cop / Bad Cop with Priti Patel. He gets Patel onto the podium to make the nasty announcements, such as that non-Brit NHS staff have to pay £650/yr to use the health service. Then he waits to see how it goes down with the public and if it gets a dreadful reception he takes the credit himself for reversing the decision and therefore shows us all he is “compassionate”. I am surprised you lot can’t see that, it’s obvious.

Who's Bozo?

 

[poolseasider]

Who's Bozo?
[/QUOTE


https://images.app.goo.gl/rK2mvoLpZAWX3iHc7

 

[Wizaard]

And all the lefties on here, are still bitter, fuming and full of hatred since the election result. Socialism is dead comrades. Just accept it

More nonsense. The only decent things this Government have done are in response to criticism. If it was left to them there'd be unfettered access to the country, even less PPE, charges on NHS staff for their own healthcare, a stop to furlough next week for starters.

All changes to policy brought through constructive criticism and not blind panderings in the so called interests of unity.

 

[Wizaard]

Yes I'm absolutely sure. It's as dead as a dodo. As Margaret Thatcher famously said 'the problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money'

Nationalised railways, indefinite extensions for poorly paid immigrants, lauding of the NHS at every opportunity. Yes, it's a hard right Government

 

[RUSTY_2_STANDS]

Nationalised railways, indefinite extensions for poorly paid immigrants, lauding of the NHS at every opportunity. Yes, it's a hard right Government

It’s as dead as a dodo. Look at how Labour have had to ditch their failed hard line socialist experiment and appoint a moderate centre ground leader.
Socialism got slaughtered at the last election and it won’t come back to the UK for a long time, perhaps never.
And your opinion that the government is paying out all this money by choice is utter nonsense. It’s extraordinary times and no government would adopt this fiscal policy under normal circumstances. I doubt even Corbyn would in normal circumstances.
But we’ll never know as his hard line policies were roundly rejected
Anyway, let’s bookmark this and see how long it is before the UK elects a socialist government. You’re in for a long wait

 

[Archibald Knox]

Who's Bozo?

I have edited to “Boris” for the hard of thinking...

 

[Archibald Knox]

It’s as dead as a dodo. Look at how Labour have had to ditch their failed hard line socialist experiment and appoint a moderate centre ground leader.
Socialism got slaughtered at the last election and it won’t come back to the UK for a long time, perhaps never.
And your opinion that the government is paying out all this money by choice is utter nonsense. It’s extraordinary times and no government would adopt this fiscal policy under normal circumstances. I doubt even Corbyn would in normal circumstances.
But we’ll never know as his hard line policies were roundly rejected
Anyway, let’s bookmark this and see how long it is before the UK elects a socialist government. You’re in for a long wait

You don’t think Keir Starmer is a socialist? It’s a shame we all have to wait nearly five years to find out. But patiently wait, we will. Then again, a week is a long time in politics and I’ve got a feeling Boris will not be still around then to take KS on. Whether he gets shafted by the 1922 or Priti Piranha or simply bottles it...

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

It should be 'Conservatives' Labour'
but then you'd end up with three apostrophes which would look shit!

There’s only one apostrophe there.

Here to help

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

Fortunetly, there is now a plethora of independent news creators and political commentators that have grown all over social media platforms not just globally but here in the UK and are not hamstrung by the dominance of the Tory rags and as they are having a marked decline in their readership their influnce will decline. The knives will be out as evidenced by reactions in certain Tory rags who are getting a little uncomfartable with Bozos latest performances.

Who's Bozo?

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

More nonsense. The only decent things this Government have done are in response to criticism. If it was left to them there'd be unfettered access to the country, even less PPE, charges on NHS staff for their own healthcare, a stop to furlough next week for starters.

All changes to policy brought through constructive criticism and not blind panderings in the so called interests of unity.

So... You're critisisng the government for responding to critisism and working with the opposition during a National emergency?

Would you prefer the Government to ignore any critism and to stick to their original policies whether it's working or not?

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

There’s only one apostrophe there.

Here to help

Well, there's two ascii 39s present (which is the ascii code for the apostrophe), but granted only one is being used as an apostrophe!

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

You don’t think Keir Starmer is a socialist? It’s a shame we all have to wait nearly five years to find out. But patiently wait, we will. Then again, a week is a long time in politics and I’ve got a feeling Boris will not be still around then to take KS on. Whether he gets shafted by the 1922 or Priti Piranha or simply bottles it...

He's as Socialist as Tory Blair.

It's not relevant as the red rosette voters will vote for the party regardless of his politics.

Corbyn wasn't rejected because he was a Socialist, he was rejected because he was Corbyn.

 

[Don_K_Lasher]

I'm lost

What's the relevance of the McDonalds' clown to Sir Kier Starmer?

 

[Wizaard]

So... You're critisisng the government for responding to critisism and working with the opposition during a National emergency?

Would you prefer the Government to ignore any critism and to stick to their original policies whether it's working or not?

I see Professor Ian Boyd of SAGE has come out and criticised the Government, saying early intervention would have saved lives.

Surrender monkey, having a go at those doing their best. Not the time. He should be nothing but supportive.