Iran attacks Israel.

[Lost Seasider]

I'd wager that every one of our consulates has a military attache. What's the difference?

I doubt that fact, but even if that were the case, I'd guess that the role of the military attaché is not to organize attacks on other countries, and the consulate is not primarily a C&C centre to organize those attacks.

Every war we've had has been with the support of Parliament. To say otherwise is ludicrous.

WW1? WW2?, The Falklands? The Boer War? The Crimean War? The Peninsular War? The War of the Spanish Succession?

Are you sure?

In particular, can you point to specific mandates for the above being given by parliament in advance?

From Hansard

2011 parliamentary convention

In 2011 the Coalition Government suggested that, since 2003, a convention had emerged in Parliament that before troops were committed to military operations the House of Commons should have an opportunity to debate the matter. It also proposed to observe that Convention except when there was an emergency and such action would not be appropriate.

No link as usual.

So a suggestion that a convention has emerged in recent years, that may or may not cover this type of operation, that isn't binding on the government, and would be covered by the "emergency" provision anyway.

You make my point for me.

 

[Matesrates]

You thick fucker, Trump if he's reelected will give putin Ukraine within 6 weeks.

I say old chap, tone it down a tad, there’s a good fellow.

 

[AlternativeSeaside]

Post removed, offensive content.

 

[Old_Laytonian]

I'm in my local in South Birmingham and haven't seen any Muslims or in Morrisons earlier . Where are they taking over?

 

[Foolweary]

Yeah alright Einstein, lend me your crystal ball will you

The guy is in neck deep with Putin, completely whipped, it's not a prediction, simple cause and effect.

On the morning of the Ukraine invasion he proclaimed Putin a genius.
Pulled the US support out of Syria and left it to Russia
Tried to block the sale of an air defense system to Ukraine whilst president
Has his minions in congress stopping crucial military support to Ukraine right now.

How many clues do you need Heisenberg?

 

[Foolweary]

It’s sad that lefties can’t allow any other views to there’s so presume you think Biden is the sharpest leader of the free world ever. Resorting to insults means you have lost the argument

Don't give a toss about Biden, I just don't want a Putin puppet back in power.

When I'm confronted by a moron ill identify it.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

The guy is in neck deep with Putin, completely whipped, it's not a prediction, simple cause and effect.

On the morning of the Ukraine invasion he proclaimed Putin a genius.
Pulled the US support out of Syria and left it to Russia
Tried to block the sale of an air defense system to Ukraine whilst president
Has his minions in congress stopping crucial military support to Ukraine right now.

How many clues do you need Heisenberg?

Let's not forget Trump betrayed his own intelligence service to side with Putin at the Helsinki summit.

Anyone who doesn't think Trump is Putin's puppet is a ** idiot .

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I'm in my local in South Birmingham and haven't seen any Muslims or in Morrisons earlier . Where are they taking over?

99% of them don’t drink alcohol it’s forbidden so unless they nipped in for a packet of walkers crips you wouldn’t.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

So you're in favour of Israeli civilians being killed by Iranian missile attacks, and think Iran should be allowed to organize attacks on Israel free of any response by them.

At least we know where you stand.

I've said nothing about killing civilians, . If Israel didn't get military and political support from the US and most of Europe it would be far more careful about indiscriminately attacking other countries also killing civilians and of course carrying out extra judicial killings in foreign countries. The Israel government particularly the right wing governments over the years have consistently put Israeli civilians lives at risk through those actions. Don't forget that at any point in time around forty percent of Israeli's are either in the military or reservists. If the logic of the netanyahu administration is that a majority of Gazans are potential militarily active (without evidence) and treat civilians as such, they should expect (with some justification) that other countries might treat israel in the same manner. You have no idea where I stand on Israel other than it needs to take responsibility for its actions, which it doesn't and gets a free pass from most western nations. Whatever opinions I have of Israel is derived from working out there for five years and having dealings with people in government, including colleagues who were part of Yitzhak Rabin's last administration.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Oh, I'm sorry, those missiles obviously weren't aimed at civilian population centres, and would have landed in completely unpopulated areas that the Israelis were only using for "Zionism", and clearly any casualties would've been Zionist occupiers, like the 1,200 that were murdered on 7/10, and let's not go into details about all the other horrors that were committed on that dreadful day.

I have some magic beans you might be interested in.

You are something of a caricature, Lost. Back-channel diplomacy operated to provide advanced warning of the attack and civilians were not targeted. I make no comment as to the perceived benefits of the action as far as Iran is concerned. I am prepared, however, to say that any escalation of military attacks by either party is a very bad idea.

 

[Matesrates]

Oh, I'm sorry, those missiles obviously weren't aimed at civilian population centres, and would have landed in completely unpopulated areas that the Israelis were only using for "Zionism", and clearly any casualties would've been Zionist occupiers, like the 1,200 that were murdered on 7/10, and let's not go into details about all the other horrors that were committed on that dreadful day.

I have some magic beans you might be interested in.

Footage shows missiles being intercepted very close to the Mosque on Temple Mount. Seems a bizarre target.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Footage shows missiles being intercepted very close to the Mosque on Temple Mount. Seems a bizarre target.

Probably not the target then, just a site en route where they happened to be intercepted.

In fact, I suspect quite a lot of the drones weren't targeted at all, but were just decoys sent on a heading to try to overwhelm the defences.

 

[no9]

You are something of a caricature, Lost. Back-channel diplomacy operated to provide advanced warning of the attack and civilians were not targeted. I make no comment as to the perceived benefits of the action as far as Iran is concerned. I am prepared, however, to say that any escalation of military attacks by either party is a very bad idea.

I think your right, Iran government had to respond but gave Israel and the US plenty of warning.

And did I read right that the drones took 9 hours to get to Israel.

I don’t think Israel should respond this time.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I think your right, Iran government had to respond but gave Israel and the US plenty of warning.

And did I read right that the drones took 9 hours to get to Israel.

I don’t think Israel should respond this time.

Don't know but it is a long way from Iran to Israel.

 

[Matesrates]

Don't know but it is a long way from Iran to Israel.

Google says 620 miles, surprised the drones didn’t fall out of the sky if it took them 9 hours.

 

[no9]

Google says 620 miles, surprised the drones didn’t fall out of the sky if it took them 9 hours.

Don’t know how fast they go but at 60mph that’s 10 hours

 

[Matesrates]

Don’t know how fast they go but at 60mph that’s 10 hours

It is, but can anything stay flying at that speed? Maybe they can, I’m certainly no expert.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Don’t know how fast they go but at 60mph that’s 10 hours

You could always google to find out.

115 MPH.

 

[no9]

You could always google to find out.

115 MPH.

Ahh so either I read it wrong or they flew against the wind.

Or they were old drones

 

[Micky Walsh]

So you're in favour of Israeli civilians being killed by Iranian missile attacks, and think Iran should be allowed to organize attacks on Israel free of any response by them.

At least we know where you stand.

Yes we know where he stands, notice the 'we' here like he is on his own so beware do not have an opinion, are we in the school yard! A person is allowed their opinion without the little veiled threat at the end.

 

[seasideone]

The US have just said that they and Israel had no warning of the 350 ish objects launched at Israel.

The thought process is currently that the drones were sent to overload the defence systems to allow the cruise and ballistic missiles through.

I get the impression even the US are surprised how well the defence system worked.

In reality, for a latest generation fighter or Patriot missile system - drones are like shooting fish in a barrel.

If anything this may have taught Iran a lesson!

 

[no9]

In reality, for a latest generation fighter or Patriot missile system - drones are like shooting fish in a barrel.

I’m surprised they didn’t know.

But as you say easy to defend against which Iran must have known surely.

 

[Wizaard]

The US have just said that they and Israel had no warning of the 350 ish objects launched at Israel.

The thought process is currently that the drones were sent to overload the defence systems to allow the cruise and ballistic missiles through.

I get the impression even the US are surprised how well the defence system worked.

In reality, for a latest generation fighter or Patriot missile system - drones are like shooting fish in a barrel.

If anything this may have taught Iran a lesson!

We spent £50,000 every time we shot down a £200 drone.

 

[Lala]

The US have just said that they and Israel had no warning of the 350 ish objects launched at Israel.

The thought process is currently that the drones were sent to overload the defence systems to allow the cruise and ballistic missiles through.

I get the impression even the US are surprised how well the defence system worked.

In reality, for a latest generation fighter or Patriot missile system - drones are like shooting fish in a barrel.

If anything this may have taught Iran a lesson!

How come we all knew, like hours before they got there

 

[no9]

How come we all knew, like hours before they got there

Good point Lala, we did, but the great US government didn’t

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Hang on a minute, it was Iran that just launched over 300 missiles at Israel, it was Iran that was behind the rape, murder and mutilation of 1,200 Israelis on 7/10.

True but it doesn't absolve Israel from their responsibilities. Is America to he punished for Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Is Britain to be punished for Hamburg and Dresden? We all have responsibilities and it's when war becomes so total that we lose our responsibilities in pursuit of victory.

 

[seasideone]

How come we all knew, like hours before they got there

We didn’t - we knew the drones were on the way, probably cover for the ballistic missiles.

The ballistic missiles are fast and wouldn’t take that long.

 

[seasideone]

Good point Lala, we did, but the great US government didn’t

See post above

 

[seasideone]

We spent £50,000 every time we shot down a £200 drone.

and?

 

[Lala]

We didn’t - we knew the drones were on the way, probably cover for the ballistic missiles.

The ballistic missiles are fast and wouldn’t take that long.

I seemed to know a fair while before anything landed, is that normal in a surprise attack ?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iranian-notice-attack-may-have-dampened-escalation-risks-2024-04-14/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2FBAGHDAD%2FDUBAI%2C%20April,aiming%20to%20cause%20significant%20damage.

 

[seasideone]

I seemed to know a fair while before anything landed, is that normal in a surprise attack ?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iranian-notice-attack-may-have-dampened-escalation-risks-2024-04-14/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2FBAGHDAD%2FDUBAI%2C%20April,aiming%20to%20cause%20significant%20damage.

That’s the point - the US or Israel were not warned. A drone on its way traveling slowly is a completely different to a ballistic missile traveling incredibly quick.

It looks like they tried to overwhelm the defence systems and then launch the ballistic missiles (which are different to cruise).

 

[Lost Seasider]

The thought process is currently that the drones were sent to overload the defence systems to allow the cruise and ballistic missiles through.

Yes re the cruise missiles, however I suspect the BM's would've got through regardless, but also:

In reality, for a latest generation fighter or Patriot missile system - drones are like shooting fish in a barrel.

Albeit, you're using $4,000,000 missiles to shoot down $10,000 drones, so chuck enough drones at the problem, and eventually they're going to run out of missiles.

So the Iranians managed to cause >$1bn damage last night, without hitting anything.

 

[seasideone]

Yes re the cruise missiles, however I suspect the BM's would've got through regardless, but also:



Albeit, you're using $4,000,000 missiles to shoot down $10,000 drones, so chuck enough drones at the problem, and eventually they're going to run out of missiles.

So the Iranians managed to cause >$1bn damage last night, without hitting anything.

…although a drop in the ocean (so to speak) to the US defence budget.

 

[Lala]

That’s the point - the US or Israel were not warned. A drone on its way traveling slowly is a completely different to a ballistic missile traveling incredibly quick.

It looks like they tried to overwhelm the defence systems and then launch the ballistic missiles (which are different to cruise).

Why should the US be informed ? Apologies, I’m just not aware of the protocols.

 

[seasideone]

Why should the US be informed ? Apologies, I’m just not aware of the protocols.

Iran claimed they were - the US said they were not.

IMHO

Iran sent drones then cruse to overwhelm defences.

They then sent ballistic missiles which they expected to get through.

The defences held up 99% which surprised the Iranians and to some degree the allies.

The Israelis have F35’s which if they flew could probably beat Iranian air defence quite easily.

Iran have shown their hand - and it didn’t work.

 

[Lost Seasider]

…although a drop in the ocean (so to speak) to the US defence budget.

Compared to the Israeli defence budget however...................


Also, let's factor in Ukraine, that's ~350 missiles that now aren't available to defend Ukrainian targets.

 

[Tangerine phil]

The Iranians look very silly now having wasted all those drones/rockets and presumably are wide open if Israel decide to attack. If Israel leadership are smart(not guaranteed with a hawk in charge) they would say IF massive sanctions are put in place against Iran that will count as their response.

 

[Lost Seasider]

Iran have shown their hand - and it didn’t work.

To an extent it did though.

The BMs got through, they did minimal damage to the targets, but they could've been nuclear or chemical armed and targeted at Tel Aviv instead, in which case god help us all.

Also, the Iranians now have a better idea of what's needed to defeat the Israeli air defences, namely wave upon wave of inexpensive drones, many of which may be very simple untargeted decoys, followed up by more sophisticated cruise missiles, once the air defences are exhausted, to cause the real damage.

So, it might not have been a "real" attack, but instead a test of Iran's capabilities, in which case it worked just fine.

 

[seasideone]

To an extent it did though.

The BMs got through, they did minimal damage to the targets, but they could've been nuclear or chemical armed and targeted at Tel Aviv instead, in which case god help us all.

Also, the Iranians now have a better idea of what's needed to defeat the Israeli air defences, namely wave upon wave of inexpensive drones, many of which may be very simple untargeted decoys, followed up by more sophisticated cruise missiles, once the air defences are exhausted, to cause the real damage.

So, it might not have been a "real" attack, but instead a test of Iran's capabilities, in which case it worked just fine.

circa 99% got taken out - including the BMs - that's a success for the Allies. Iran does not have nuclear weapons (yet) and I doubt they ever will - as I simply cannot see Israel allowing it - however that is enforced!!

If they were chemically armed and got through - I think there is a strong possibility Teran may well be a dust bowl by now!

What it does teach the Iranians if they are to try this again? - is that they will need a lot more - and I would back Israel/US weapons against the Iranian ones most days, and the quantity that will be available.

Reality is I cannot imagine they are using missiles to shoot down slow inexpensive drones unless they have to - especially when the Israel Airforce, USAF, RAF and Jordan Airforce are in the vicinity.

They also use high powered, highly accurate machine guns from the boats in the region as well.

 

[Lost Seasider]

circa 99% got taken out - including the BMs - that's a success for the Allies. Iran does not have nuclear weapons (yet) and I doubt they ever will - as I simply cannot see Israel allowing it - however that is enforced!!

I know at least some of the BMs got through, and I doubt Iran launched that many, so that 99% is going to apply to drones and cruise missiles, I'd be surprised if they got even 50% of the BMs.

If they were chemically armed and got through - I think there is a strong possibility Teran may well be a dust bowl by now!

Perhaps, it'd depend on how effective the chemical weapons were, but to justify that level of response, Tel Aviv would likely not be much better off.

What it does teach the Iranians if they are to try this again? - is that they will need a lot more - and I would back Israel/US weapons against the Iranian ones most days, and the quantity that will be available.

They've been shipping them off to Russia in large numbers and could still find 300+ to send to Israel, they can get a lot more.

My guess is that the attack cost them in the region of $30m, for the drones anyway, they can afford to send thousands at a time, just how many missiles do Israel have?

Reality is I cannot imagine they are using missiles to shoot down slow inexpensive drones unless they have to - especially when the Israel Airforce, USAF, RAF and Jordan Airforce are in the vicinity.

What do you think the air forces are using to shoot down the drones?

They also use high powered, highly accurate machine guns from the boats in the region as well.

Not much use to Israel though, given that there's no sea between Iran and Israel.

More fundamentally, the 20mm Phalanx used by the RN, USN and Israel is a short range system, and even larger 40mm systems are ineffective against higher flying targets.

 

[seasideone]

I know at least some of the BMs got through, and I doubt Iran launched that many, so that 99% is going to apply to drones and cruise missiles, I'd be surprised if they got even 50% of the BMs.

They launched 120 BMs, quite a few failed but a lot made it.

Perhaps, it'd depend on how effective the chemical weapons were, but to justify that level of response, Tel Aviv would likely not be much better off.

To some degree yes, but this is Israel and Iran wants to wipe them off the face of the planet.

They've been shipping them off to Russia in large numbers and could still find 300+ to send to Israel, they can get a lot more.

It was a mixture of roughly similar the number of drones, cruise and BMs.

My guess is that the attack cost them in the region of $30m, for the drones anyway, they can afford to send thousands at a time, just how many missiles do Israel have?

You will not use missiles unless the drones get very close and there is no other way.

What do you think the air forces are using to shoot down the drones?

As I have said from the ships cannons and the planes cannons. It would be like shooting sitting ducks for the drones anyway. They also have land based systems as well. Israel navy use different systems to the RN.

Not much use to Israel though, given that there's no sea between Iran and Israel.

Tel Aviv is on the coast, and these things can shoot further than a few yards.

More fundamentally, the 20mm Phalanx used by the RN, USN and Israel is a short range system, and even larger 40mm systems are ineffective against higher flying targets.

That’s why planes were in the air as well.

 

[Tangerine phil]

Israel have written to 32 countries asking for sanctions against Iran a much more effective route than bombing

 

[Loco]

The word illegal goes out of the window when it comes to war.

Why do we have war crimes then?

 

[Lost Seasider]

They launched 120 BMs, quite a few failed but a lot made it.

That seems implausible to me, have you got a link?

You will not use missiles unless the drones get very close and there is no other way.

What would you use instead?

As I have said from the ships cannons and the planes cannons. It would be like shooting sitting ducks for the drones anyway. They also have land based systems as well. Israel navy use different systems to the RN.

As I said previously, surface level systems are very short range and are ineffective against high-flying targets, I don't think our Typhoons even have guns, and those on the F15/16s are only going to be marginally effective against large numbers of drones.

Tel Aviv is in the coast, and these things can shoot further than a few yards.

Typical engagement range is <1,000m, plus firing 20mm autocannons directly into Tel Aviv might come with some downsides as well.

That’s why planes were in the air as well.

Which brings us back to you have to use missiles to bring them down.


One correction I should make, the Israeli's "Iron Dome" system reportedly costs $100,000 - $150,000 per missile, however they're relatively short ranged and could be overwhelmed by concentrated attacks.

 

[seasideone]

That seems implausible to me, have you got a link?

BBC says at least 110, everyone else reporting 120.

What was in wave of Iranian attacks and how were they thwarted?

Israel says 99% percent of projectiles fired at it by Iran overnight were intercepted by it and its allies.

www.bbc.co.uk

What would you use instead?

Sorry I thought I was clear, cannons from land sea and air - some have ranges up to 35km - you don’t need to use a million dollar module to take out a drone.

Some system can fire hyper accurate 120 rounds a second a very long way away.

As I said previously, surface level systems are very short range and are ineffective against high-flying targets, I don't think our Typhoons even have guns, and those on the F15/16s are only going to be marginally effective against large numbers of drones.

Nope - not anymore. Look up the capability of the Israel navy.

Typhoons, F35s, F15s and 16s all have highly effective cannons - especially when shooting at something slow!

Typical engagement range is <1,000m, plus firing 20mm autocannons directly into Tel Aviv might come with some downsides as well.

I have explained that already.

Which brings us back to you have to use missiles to bring them down.

Go look up the specs again, or for the first time!

One correction I should make, the Israeli's "Iron Dome" system reportedly costs $100,000 - $150,000 per missile, however they're relatively short ranged and could be overwhelmed by concentrated attacks.

Any system can be overwhelmed obviously!

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Why do we have war crimes then?

How many people/regimes actually get charged with war crimes out of the hundreds of cases we hear about?
I remember some leader/general being charged after the Bosnian/Serb war but I’m struggling to think of any others that have been charged.

 

[seasideone]

How many people/counties actually get charged with war crimes?
I remember some leader/general being charged after the Bosnian/Serb war but I’m struggling to thing of any others.

He was caught being a TV kids presenter from memory!

 

[seasideone]

Just to add - if Israel fired 500 missiles using the figure you gave and the midpoint of 125k usd, it cost about $62.5m USD and not the billion you floated originally.

@Lost Seasider

 

[Loco]

Russia is tied up in Ukraine and can't afford a direct confrontation with the West, Xi is winding his neck back in now he's realized that China is nowhere near as strong as he thought it was, neither have any great love for Iran, neither are going to come running to their aid.

If anything, by trying to de-escalate and avoid conflict, we're making ourselves look weak and encouraging the likes of Putin to push the boundaries, perhaps if we'd sanctioned Russia properly in 2014, and stomped on Iran earlier, then maybe everything that's happened over the last 2 years could've been avoide

How many people/regimes actually get charged with war crimes out of the hundreds of cases we hear about?
I remember some leader/general being charged after the Bosnian/Serb war but I’m struggling to think of any others that have been charged.

That makes it ok then ?

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

That makes it ok then ?

Did I say that?

What I am saying is you can charge as many people/countries as you want with war crimes but at the end of the day it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.