Democracy - Is it worth the bother?

[1966_and_all_that]

It is a political viewpoint... I also think that we do a pretty good job of taking care of our most vulnerable (and I think that word is sometimes used very loosely). It's by no means perfect, I agree, but we are largely looking at things relative to markedly improved measures and failing to acknowledge and recognise the advances that have and continue to be made.


And he has ultimately been sacked - Democracy in action.

For your last point, see my OP.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

Hence the hard-line approach to Hong Kong and the threat to close down internet access to Western websites.

yeah, and sooner rather than later the chinese economic boom will implode probably taking the rest of the world with it,

Yes, I understand what democracy is. What I was trying to tease out in my OP was the obvious economic, technological and developmental advantages of an autocratic society in which the masses look to "the party" for leadership. They don't say let's have a choice of parties. So, the mechanisms of democracy become redundant and all of the checks and balances that would otherwise take up so much time, simply evaporate.

i get what your saying, im just not sure that an autocratic system has inherent advantages, the checks and balances and the costs and time associated with that evaporate to be replaced with control and enforcement costs of the autocratic system. i think its very similar in terms of taking away actual governance and future planning which i assume is the point you're making, but i think i agree with you that at this moment china may have the best or at least the most time appropriate system. On that note game time.

 

[Wizaard]

The way the States has gone over the last four years, there's a very real danger to the whole democratic process. When you lose an election by literally millions of votes but maintain the lie that you've been robbed of a victory, a volatile supporter base that will believe anything you say, a conspiracy based internet coming out with all kinds of nonsense that is treated as gospel, plus a traditional opposition who simply don't understand how to combat that danger, it's all going to hell in a handcart.

The next few months are crucial. For me, the best outcome would be that clear, transparent evidence of wrongdoing by Trump, with a subsequent trial and arrest might lance the boil. The worry would be that it simply prompts further conspiracies and a martyr complex.

It needs senior figures in the Republican party to take the party back as a political force and not a personality cult. Can they do that and make it a matter of policy debate, or will someone else step forward and don (see what I've done there?) the mantle of Dearest Leader, and continue down the current xenophobic, borderline racist, certainly nationalist, populist and isolationist path of the last four years.

Strange days indeed, as Mr Lennon said. Hopefully Trump gets his instant karma

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

yeah, and sooner rather than later the chinese economic boom will implode probably taking the rest of the world with it,

i get what your saying, im just not sure that an autocratic system has inherent advantages, the checks and balances and the costs and time associated with that evaporate to be replaced with control and enforcement costs of the autocratic system. i think its very similar in terms of taking away actual governance and future planning which i assume is the point you're making, but i think i agree with you that at this moment china may have the best or at least the most time appropriate system. On that note game time.

Based on what measure?

 

[Costero Poderoso]

Based on what measure?

based on the success - economic growth, economic power, rising per capita GDP - it is having at this moment in time.

 

[Shandypants]

The education system needs to improve. Instead of brainwashing kids to pass exams they should be educated in critical thinking. Swathes of the population in the US and UK believe all sorts of tripe trotted out by politicians, hence the likes of Patel, Jenkyns, Dorries, Davies, Francois, Rees Mogg and Johnson are in positions of power. Surely these are not the best this country can muster? Until people can think for themselves, instead of lapping up culture war propaganda on Facebook, democracy will struggle to function properly.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

I would make voting compulsory. A necessary part of such a system, however, would be to include the 'none of the above' option on the ballot paper.

Except that wouldn't be very democratic.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

The education system needs to improve. Instead of brainwashing kids to pass exams they should be educated in critical thinking. Swathes of the population in the US and UK believe all sorts of tripe trotted out by politicians, hence the likes of Patel, Jenkyns, Dorries, Davies, Francois, Rees Mogg and Johnson are in positions of power. Surely these are not the best this country can muster? Until people can think for themselves, instead of lapping up culture war propaganda on Facebook, democracy will struggle to function properly.

I'm sure the teachers on here will confirm one way or the other but the comprehensive education system appears to be a tick box exercise for reporting results these days.

 

[Shandypants]

I'm sure the teachers on here will confirm one way or the other but the comprehensive education system appears to be a tick box exercise for reporting results these days.

My lad is 22 but I saw how the education he received was different to mine (I left school in '85). The whole point of his education was to pass SATS and GCSE's nothing else. My schooling was a lot more relaxed, even doing O Levels was fairly low key. I much preferred the education I received, it might sound daft but we were much wilder with fireworks going off in the school yard and nothing said, scraps galore and wagging school was rife. Kids these days are angels by comparison, getting into scrapes and dicking about in school is part of the education process.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

yeah, and sooner rather than later the chinese economic boom will implode probably taking the rest of the world with it,

i get what your saying, im just not sure that an autocratic system has inherent advantages, the checks and balances and the costs and time associated with that evaporate to be replaced with control and enforcement costs of the autocratic system. i think its very similar in terms of taking away actual governance and future planning which i assume is the point you're making, but i think i agree with you that at this moment china may have the best or at least the most time appropriate system. On that note game time.

To come clean, I completely disapprove of the Chinese authoritarian hold on power. You are correct. What they are not required to expend on justifying themselves to a democratically empowered populace, they have to expend on command and control. Besides, just because they are not required to justify their long term plans in order to retain power it does not mean that they are guaranteed to come up with worthwhile and productive plans. being answerable to no-one is no recipe for success.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Except that wouldn't be very democratic.

Wouldn't it? For a democracy to work it must be seen to work. That means that the right to expect the majority vote to be implemented must be accompanied by a duty of those empowered to vote, to participate. One of the main complaints of the Brexiteers was that the EU was not democratic; that the unelected European Commission rules without censure. This is not true but gains credibility because the European Parliament (in which UK citizens had a vote to elect their members) seemed so distant and vague. The low turnouts to vote in these elections compounded that perception. The same is true of elections for Policing & Crime Commissioners.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

based on the success - economic growth, economic power, rising per capita GDP - it is having at this moment in time.

OK... Clearly that’s a fairly narrow means to measure success and certainly not a means to determine what system is ‘best’.

The success of a system ought to be determined by the overall quality & quantity of life experienced by the population....

 

[Costero Poderoso]

To come clean, I completely disapprove of the Chinese authoritarian hold on power. You are correct. What they are not required to expend on justifying themselves to a democratically empowered populace, they have to expend on command and control. Besides, just because they are not required to justify their long term plans in order to retain power it does not mean that they are guaranteed to come up with worthwhile and productive plans. being answerable to no-one is no recipe for success.

i agree with you 100%, even if what they do is successful its still not necesarily right or even worthwhile, an dthe same applies to western democracy.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I haven't seen the evidence yet that China still wouldn't have achieved its economic advancement if it wasn't an autocracy (though that's because you could never prove it). China was the biggest economy for most of human history, it was only in the 1800's that began to change, you could argue it's just a return to form, it's also much easier to catch up with current economies, most countries which are poorer have higher growth rates which means they're catching up with the west. There's a great video from Gapminder that shows you the growth over the last 200 years. China also does especially well as they're happy to pillage intellectual property, and can't really be hurt for doing so. The video is here:

I fundamentally think that you can have good and bad democracies, as well as good and bad autocracies, there is plenty of evidence for countries that have done poorly under autocratic systems (China included suffered ups and downs until ~1970). I think the U.S system of democracy is horrendous though and needs a massive overhaul. Any system needs change and I think we should be looking at how we could make democracies work much better in the 21st century with all the technology we have available.

Fundamentally though I'd always want to live in a country where I can choose to remove my leaders if they were incompetent or even worse dangerous/genocidal, what China is doing to the Uighers is absolutely terrifying and I'd never want to live in a country where I could end up in that situation, in healthy democracies where there are protections against the tyranny of the majority such things aren't possible, and I'd happily have my country be behind the curve economically if needs be to avoid that fate (as mentioned before it's easier to catch up anyway).

You have made the key point. It is people who combine into societies for their protection and benefit. Any society that can only survive by commanding and controlling its people against their will is not legitimate. All the economic progress in the world cannot legitimise such regimes.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

The way the States has gone over the last four years, there's a very real danger to the whole democratic process. When you lose an election by literally millions of votes but maintain the lie that you've been robbed of a victory, a volatile supporter base that will believe anything you say, a conspiracy based internet coming out with all kinds of nonsense that is treated as gospel, plus a traditional opposition who simply don't understand how to combat that danger, it's all going to hell in a handcart.

The next few months are crucial. For me, the best outcome would be that clear, transparent evidence of wrongdoing by Trump, with a subsequent trial and arrest might lance the boil. The worry would be that it simply prompts further conspiracies and a martyr complex.

It needs senior figures in the Republican party to take the party back as a political force and not a personality cult. Can they do that and make it a matter of policy debate, or will someone else step forward and don (see what I've done there?) the mantle of Dearest Leader, and continue down the current xenophobic, borderline racist, certainly nationalist, populist and isolationist path of the last four years.

Strange days indeed, as Mr Mojo Risin had it.

Your points are important in taking my OP (American democracy has held firm by getting rid of Trump) and making any lasting success conditional on the way that Trump is now treated, the handling of social media and the re-emergence of the GOP as a Party for communal good, not individual idolatry.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Wouldn't it? For a democracy to work it must be seen to work. That means that the right to expect the majority vote to be implemented must be accompanied by a duty of those empowered to vote, to participate. One of the main complaints of the Brexiteers was that the EU was not democratic; that the unelected European Commission rules without censure. This is not true but gains credibility because the European Parliament (in which UK citizens had a vote to elect their members) seemed so distant and vague. The low turnouts to vote in these elections compounded that perception. The same is true of elections for Policing & Crime Commissioners.

No by it's very nature you can't force people to participate in a democratic process.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

No by it's very nature you can't force people to participate in a democratic process.

I think you're confusing the freedom to choose (a democratic political right) with a freedom to participate (not part of the definition of democracy). 22 countries around the world have compulsory voting, of which 11 enforce it. These include: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Greece, Mexico and Uruguay.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

I think you're confusing the freedom to choose (a democratic political right) with a freedom to participate (not part of the definition of democracy). 22 countries around the world have compulsory voting, of which 11 enforce it. These include: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Greece, Mexico and Uruguay.

I disagree, you're forcing a democratic process, an oxymoron.

Anyway I just think as a species we're fundamentally flawed and stuck in the paradoxical nature of those actively seeking power usually not being fit for it.

There's not always an answer, maybe there's no system to suit us, we're too debased. I gave up on the supposed brilliance of humanity a long time ago.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I disagree, you're forcing a democratic process, an oxymoron.

Anyway I just think as a species we're fundamentally flawed and stuck in the paradoxical nature of those actively seeking power usually not being fit for it.

There's not always an answer, maybe there's no system to suit us, we're too debased. I gave up on the supposed brilliance of humanity a long time ago.

Cheer up Lytham, it's an interesting debate but by no means life threatening.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

Cheer up Lytham, it's an interesting debate but by no means life threatening.

I'm perfectly cheery in my opinion that as a species we're a sentient virus.