Conservative Party civil war

Well come the GE there will be a lot of MPs who will be on record of voting for fracking and being against the Net Zero policy.

That’s not going to read well with younger voters or older voters who are sensitive to Green issues. It’s not going to be hard to be an opposition candidate is it?
 
I said earlier Truss wouldn’t last the end of the month.
Not sure now she’ll see the end of the week out at this rate.
 
I said earlier Truss wouldn’t last the end of the month.
Not sure now she’ll see the end of the week at this rate.
Shapps just announced as new Home Secretary. 😮
 
I said at the time of the Brexit referendum that our political class wasn't talented enough to make us a happier, wealthier country outside of the EU. This civil war is happening because Cameron wanted to undermine UKIP and keep all but the most extreme right of centre votes for the Conservative party.
Unfortunately for all their talk of being a broad church the Conservatives are incredibly divided. The sensible old school, fairly dull Tories have been sidelined, I don't agree with many of their views but I understand them and most of them wanted to stay in the EU.
The ones calling the shots now are the right wing and the even more right wing! Camerons plan failed, the Tory party needs to split to accommodate the two major factions and they need to do it while out of government. The everyday people of the UK deserve much better than this, even the ones that voted for them!!
 
There needs to be a new centre ground party formed with sensible sorts such as Dominic Grieve and the ERG goulls Mark Francois, Steve Baker, Rees Mogg and Andrea Jenkyns can fuck right out of our lives. They've shown themselves for what they are, blagging fools. Let's rejoin the single market as soon as possible.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
A three line whip - that's democracy in action
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The government is committed to listening to local views by ensuring that the democratically elected local representatives vote according to the government wishes.

Honestly, there's fuck all difference between us and the Soviets sometimes except I'll never get a Trabant
 
Shandypants said:
There needs to be a new centre ground party formed with sensible sorts such as Dominic Grieve and the ERG goulls Mark Francois, Steve Baker, Rees Mogg and Andrea Jenkyns can fuck right out of our lives. They've shown themselves for what they are, blagging fools. Let's rejoin the single market as soon as possible.
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Ironically, Steve Baker is very good on football and governance and such. I had to check it was the same Steve Baker...
 
td53 said:
Ironically, Steve Baker is very good on football and governance and such. I had to check it was the same Steve Baker...
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He was just on and was surprisingly honest.

Talking about immigration (I think) and cabinet responsibility he admitted he didn’t know what the policy was but that he’d support it when he did 😂
 
Shandypants said:
There needs to be a new centre ground party formed with sensible sorts such as Dominic Grieve and the ERG goulls Mark Francois, Steve Baker, Rees Mogg and Andrea Jenkyns can fuck right out of our lives. They've shown themselves for what they are, blagging fools. Let's rejoin the single market as soon as possible.
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I'm not sure a new centre ground party would make much difference, centrist ideas tend to just tinker with current thinking, I'm not even sure that centre ground can even be defined properly, Blair was supposedly a centrist to most people, personally (and I don't think I'm entirely alone in this) I think he was almost as right leaning as Thatcher.

The country is I think crying out for serious reform, at a constitutional level, and certainly at governance level, and probably at a structural and social level, but who currently in politics is going to initiate or simply vote to put themselves out of a job. A reform party might be the answer, but that is not a centrist position.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
I'm not sure a new centre ground party would make much difference, centrist ideas tend to just tinker with current thinking, I'm not even sure that centre ground can even be defined properly, Blair was supposedly a centrist to most people, personally (and I don't think I'm entirely alone in this) I think he was almost as right leaning as Thatcher.

The country is I think crying out for serious reform, at a constitutional level, and certainly at governance level, and probably at a structural and social level, but who currently in politics is going to initiate or simply vote to put themselves out of a job. A reform party might be the answer, but that is not a centrist position.
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Yeh I suppose so, whatever is happening at the minute cannot continue. I'm seriously sick of the ERG goons, deport the lot of them to Rwanda.
 
gjr69 said:
I said at the time of the Brexit referendum that our political class wasn't talented enough to make us a happier, wealthier country outside of the EU. This civil war is happening because Cameron wanted to undermine UKIP and keep all but the most extreme right of centre votes for the Conservative party.
Unfortunately for all their talk of being a broad church the Conservatives are incredibly divided. The sensible old school, fairly dull Tories have been sidelined, I don't agree with many of their views but I understand them and most of them wanted to stay in the EU.
The ones calling the shots now are the right wing and the even more right wing! Camerons plan failed, the Tory party needs to split to accommodate the two major factions and they need to do it while out of government. The everyday people of the UK deserve much better than this, even the ones that voted for them!!
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I dunno. I agree with that analysis to a point, but would equally blame the labour centrists for forcing the party into a horrible liberal fudge of a position which gifted Johnson a position of power.

There's still people who are fundamentally unable to accept Brexit, whose response to everything is 'ah... This shows the educated classes were right all along' and whilst I do understand that temptation, what worries me greatly is the idea we can go back to a pre-2016 paradigm seems palpably false and we have to have new ideas, not just a return to previous ones.

Brexit happened because of a failure of the pre Brexit circumstances so to speak.
Costero Poderoso said:
I'm not sure a new centre ground party would make much difference, centrist ideas tend to just tinker with current thinking, I'm not even sure that centre ground can even be defined properly, Blair was supposedly a centrist to most people, personally (and I don't think I'm entirely alone in this) I think he was almost as right leaning as Thatcher.

The country is I think crying out for serious reform, at a constitutional level, and certainly at governance level, and probably at a structural and social level, but who currently in politics is going to initiate or simply vote to put themselves out of a job. A reform party might be the answer, but that is not a centrist position.
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I agree.

For years people ask for a return to the centre but when you ask what that means, no one knows what the policies are.

I'm not sure their is a centre to speak of, aside from the fact people right now will probably, in the short term vote for competence and stability - but in and of itself, that will only appeal for so long.
 
td53 said:
I dunno. I agree with that analysis to a point, but would equally blame the labour centrists for forcing the party into a horrible liberal fudge of a position which gifted Johnson a position of power.

There's still people who are fundamentally unable to accept Brexit, whose response to everything is 'ah... This shows the educated classes were right all along' and whilst I do understand that temptation, what worries me greatly is the idea we can go back to a pre-2016 paradigm seems palpably false and we have to have new ideas, not just a return to previous ones.

Brexit happened because of a failure of the pre Brexit circumstances so to speak.

I agree.

For years people ask for a return to the centre but when you ask what that means, no one knows what the policies are.

I'm not sure their is a centre to speak of, aside from the fact people right now will probably, in the short term vote for competence and stability - but in and of itself, that will only appeal for so long.
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I have no education beyond the age of 16 I just looked at who was giving the message and how solid their claims and promises were, it helps that I'm not xenophobic or nationalistic and could make a clear headed decision.
Labour definitely been too gray in the last few years, which has allowed a sub standard Conservative party to stay in power for way too long.
 
gjr69 said:
I have no education beyond the age of 16 I just looked at who was giving the message and how solid their claims and promises were, it helps that I'm not xenophobic or nationalistic and could make a clear headed decision.
Labour definitely been too gray in the last few years, which has allowed a sub standard Conservative party to stay in power for way too long.
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I'm not accusing you of that attitude at all, you don't strike me as snobbish in anyway. I probably come across that way far more than you do with my self aggrandisimg waffle - it is, however an attitude that exists - I do, however, think the idea that Brexit is simply about xenophobic attitudes or nationalism is partly the problem as it simplifies a complex structural thing into a more basic problem of attitude

There's an idea that reversing Brexit is a panacea. It's not. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the conditions were layed for Brexit in multiple things that happened whilst we were in the EU and some of those things were because we were in the EU.

People's general sense that the status quo was 'a bit shit' was entirely legitimate and those concerns were ignored for years and unfortunately, the result was Brexit. You've got to address those issues and whilst we've discovered the right's plan was rubbish (I'm not sure they ever had a plan beyond 'get power, deregulation and run off with money) we need a better plan than 'yeah, but Brexit was a bad idea' to get out of this ** horrific hole we've dug ourselves into and have been digging for about 45 years.

The EU itself is beset with problems. Politics and democracy as a whole is beset with issues. I tend to think it's a good thing if people work together and I did vote remain but at the same time, I think a lot of people voted leave in genuine hope that outside of a great big slow moving institution, we might start to take quicker decisions and change would come. I don't think that's really a bad or stupid thing to hope for.
 
I've not read this thread, it's depressing and I've been busy, but fuck me we've had some properly thick entitled knobheads in power for the past twelve years.

Can anyone offer up a Tory minister since 2010 that you'd actually employ yourselves?
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
I've not read this thread, it's depressing and I've been busy, but fuck me we've had some properly thick entitled knobheads in power for the past twelve years.

Can anyone offer up a Tory minister since 2010 that you'd actually employ yourselves?
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Yes definitely, when I take my dog for a walk Braverman can pick up it's shit to save me the hassle. I'd supply the bag and give her 25p.
 
td53 said:
I'm not accusing you of that attitude at all, you don't strike me as snobbish in anyway. I probably come across that way far more than you do with my self aggrandisimg waffle - it is, however an attitude that exists - I do, however, think the idea that Brexit is simply about xenophobic attitudes or nationalism is partly the problem as it simplifies a complex structural thing into a more basic problem of attitude

There's an idea that reversing Brexit is a panacea. It's not. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the conditions were layed for Brexit in multiple things that happened whilst we were in the EU and some of those things were because we were in the EU.

People's general sense that the status quo was 'a bit shit' was entirely legitimate and those concerns were ignored for years and unfortunately, the result was Brexit. You've got to address those issues and whilst we've discovered the right's plan was rubbish (I'm not sure they ever had a plan beyond 'get power, deregulation and run off with money) we need a better plan than 'yeah, but Brexit was a bad idea' to get out of this ** horrific hole we've dug ourselves into and have been digging for about 45 years.

The EU itself is beset with problems. Politics and democracy as a whole is beset with issues. I tend to think it's a good thing if people work together and I did vote remain but at the same time, I think a lot of people voted leave in genuine hope that outside of a great big slow moving institution, we might start to take quicker decisions and change would come. I don't think that's really a bad or stupid thing to hope for.
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Lots of people that I know had lots of different reasons for voting for Brexit, I didn't think any of them stood up to much analysis but the worst thing is they were played by the right wing of the Tory party and look where it's got us!
Charles Walker who was pro Brexit says the worst thing this country ever did was have a referendum on Brexit, its been a shit show ever since but you are right you can't just reverse it and go back.
Lost opportunities for young and old alike, nothing gained in a commercial sense and the UK becomes more embarrassing with every day that passes, no wonder you rarely hear from Farage these days!
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
I've not read this thread, it's depressing and I've been busy, but fuck me we've had some properly thick entitled knobheads in power for the past twelve years.

Can anyone offer up a Tory minister since 2010 that you'd actually employ yourselves?
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I live opposite a Bargain Booze, it's a busy little shop, obviously a lot of piss pots in the area, if Johnson or Truss was put in charge I can almost be certain that it would be out of business in a year.
Unfortunately it's worse than that, these two clowns have contrived to put lots of businesses under on the back of their huge egos and small talents!
Johnson currently on holiday in the carribean, somebody else probably paying for it, but why can MPs go on holiday when parliament is open for business, its not like they don't get loads of recess time. Fat, lazy, freeloading dick head will probably be PM again soon!! That's really depressing!
 
gjr69 said:
I live opposite a Bargain Booze, it's a busy little shop, obviously a lot of piss pots in the area, if Johnson or Truss was put in charge I can almost be certain that it would be out of business in a year.
Unfortunately it's worse than that, these two clowns have contrived to put lots of businesses under on the back of their huge egos and small talents!
Johnson currently on holiday in the carribean, somebody else probably paying for it, but why can MPs go on holiday when parliament is open for business, its not like they don't get loads of recess time. Fat, lazy, freeloading dick head will probably be PM again soon!! That's really depressing!
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The overwhelming thing that pisses me off, is not that I disagree with them - I do and I always will but that's a democracy, but it's that they literally don't give a shit. I've never heard a more depressing interview than one I heard with Rees-Mogg the other day. It was just so distant, so cold, so tactical, so aloof. It was like he genuinely didn't understand what all the fuss was about and didn't everyone know that politics is a jolly game so he'll bally well lie and spin if he wants, because that's the ruddy game isn't it old boy?

They've got no way out. They've ended up with a position of their own making where now they're offering higher taxes for less stuff and they're fucked. No one likes Hunt, no one likes Truss and if I was Rishi, I'd stay well away and keep my powder dry as I'm sure any vaguely credible Tory will.
 
td53 said:
The overwhelming thing that pisses me off, is not that I disagree with them - I do and I always will but that's a democracy, but it's that they literally don't give a shit. I've never heard a more depressing interview than one I heard with Rees-Mogg the other day. It was just so distant, so cold, so tactical, so aloof. It was like he genuinely didn't understand what all the fuss was about and didn't everyone know that politics is a jolly game so he'll bally well lie and spin if he wants, because that's the ruddy game isn't it old boy?

They've got no way out. They've ended up with a position of their own making where now they're offering higher taxes for less stuff and they're fucked. No one likes Hunt, no one likes Truss and if I was Rishi, I'd stay well away and keep my powder dry as I'm sure any vaguely credible Tory will.
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As Rees Mogg becomes more vocal and visible the Tories become less electable. I think they normally lock him up somewhere at election time with good reason!!
He will soon be pushed to the background where he can concentrate on his main interest, his own personal fortune.
 
td53 said:
I'm not sure their is a centre to speak of, aside from the fact people right now will probably, in the short term vote for competence and stability - but in and of itself, that will only appeal for so long.
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Centrist to me means a sensible boring government that is so dull folk rarely bother to talk about it. Rather this than a daily soap opera starring Truss, Rees-Mogg and their like.
 
Macseasider said:
Centrist to me means a sensible boring government that is so dull folk rarely bother to talk about it. Rather this than a daily soap opera starring Truss, Rees-Mogg and their like.
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No one knows what the boring things they should do are though. The consensus has been shredded by 2016 onward and then the situation is such that you have to actually *do* something about stuff and things. The centrism people hark back to (the kind of middle management government of the 90s and 2000s doesn't fit the time.

Everyone agrees they want 'a competent' government, but I think the political landscape is weird and we don't really know what that means. We know what it isn't but that doesn't always help identify what it is.
 
Watching Peston last night and it's apparent the ERG lot are still calling the shots as new PMs are desperateto get their support. Steve Baker it's chairman was on, he is totally opposed to Sunak becoming PM and I've got a pretty solid idea why. Odd bunch of people I get the distinct impression that even a pure brexit wouldn't be enough, there'd still be a pathological hatred of Europe. I jest not, never give this lot the nuclear codes, France would be wiped off the map, sadly there'd be cheerleaders on this board.
 
Shandypants said:
Watching Peston last night and it's apparent the ERG lot are still calling the shots as new PMs are desperateto get their support. Steve Baker it's chairman was on, he is totally opposed to Sunak becoming PM and I've got a pretty solid idea why. Odd bunch of people I get the distinct impression that even a pure brexit wouldn't be enough, there'd still be a pathological hatred of Europe. I jest not, never give this lot the nuclear codes, France would be wiped off the map, sadly there'd be cheerleaders on this board.
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Yes - I can't believe that Braverman thinks she can become PM, but she really does - hence her resignation. Can you just imagine that for a moment, the civil war inside the party would just continue except that she is even more unsuitable than Truss. What a ** shambles they are.
 
Shandypants said:
Watching Peston last night and it's apparent the ERG lot are still calling the shots as new PMs are desperateto get their support. Steve Baker it's chairman was on, he is totally opposed to Sunak becoming PM and I've got a pretty solid idea why. Odd bunch of people I get the distinct impression that even a pure brexit wouldn't be enough, there'd still be a pathological hatred of Europe. I jest not, never give this lot the nuclear codes, France would be wiped off the map, sadly there'd be cheerleaders on this board.
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This ultra right wing of the Conservative party party needs to do the decent thing and either form a new party or join something like ukip. They are operating amongst the regular Tories but if they were separated from them and had to put themselves out there for what they are I'd like to think that most British people wouldn't vote for them.
 
gjr69 said:
I have no education beyond the age of 16 I just looked at who was giving the message and how solid their claims and promises were, it helps that I'm not xenophobic or nationalistic and could make a clear headed decision.
Labour definitely been too gray in the last few years, which has allowed a sub standard Conservative party to stay in power for way too long.
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At the risk of patronising you I would say that you come across as thoughtful and well read. It is true that Labour's naval gazing - together with allowing infiltration by extremists - under Corbyn, allowed the Tories to retain power despite them veering off to the far right and causing a great deal of harm to the country. Now though, Labour in Parliament is pulling together a good team, whilst also sorting out the mess it had got into in its constituency parties. Unfortunately, given the arithmetic, the Government can only fall if the Tory backbenchers are prepared to make it happen.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
At the risk of patronising you I would say that you come across as thoughtful and well read. It is true that Labour's naval gazing - together with allowing infiltration by extremists - under Corbyn, allowed the Tories to retain power despite them veering off to the far right and causing a great deal of harm to the country. Now though, Labour in Parliament is pulling together a good team, whilst also sorting out the mess it had got into in its constituency parties. Unfortunately, given the arithmetic, the Government can only fall if the Tory backbenchers are prepared to make it happen.
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Thanks for your opening line I do my best to be both of those things!
As for the Tory backbenchers bringing the government down I don't think they will be rushing to do it. It would be ridiculous for them to have another internal leadership election so quickly and calling a general election would see them wiped out if it happened soon.
The interview on the BBC with Charles Walker yesterday was very insightful. To summarise he said MPs have mortgages too and nobody wants to be an ex MP!
A lot of self interest going on while the country suffers.
 
Shandypants said:
Watching Peston last night and it's apparent the ERG lot are still calling the shots as new PMs are desperateto get their support. Steve Baker it's chairman was on, he is totally opposed to Sunak becoming PM and I've got a pretty solid idea why. Odd bunch of people I get the distinct impression that even a pure brexit wouldn't be enough, there'd still be a pathological hatred of Europe. I jest not, never give this lot the nuclear codes, France would be wiped off the map, sadly there'd be cheerleaders on this board.
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Not sure what their game is at the moment or how big their influence is in cabinet?
BUT Steve Baker as well as being just about loyal to Truss seemed to be saying that it clearly was a vote of confidence and anyone abstaining or voting against Fracking should lose the whip.
Surely if Truss pushes that button (it’s not clear I think but she might have already done this) then everything comes to a head very soon and she will one way or other have to resign, be ousted, halted in her tracks some way or call a general election.
I assume Baker was trying to facilitate the collapse of her regime one way or another?
 
gjr69 said:
Thanks for your opening line I do my best to be both of those things!
As for the Tory backbenchers bringing the government down I don't think they will be rushing to do it. It would be ridiculous for them to have another internal leadership election so quickly and calling a general election would see them wiped out if it happened soon.
The interview on the BBC with Charles Walker yesterday was very insightful. To summarise he said MPs have mortgages too and nobody wants to be an ex MP!
A lot of self interest going on while the country suffers.
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Unfortunately if the backbenchers don't bring the government down then we are going to have 2 years of this farce as there is no individual in the Tories that could unite them and get any legislation through. Basically the split which has been there for 30 years regarding Europe and the libetarian, free market dreams of the ERG has torn the part asunder as even the more centrist, Brexit supporting MPs have realised the harm that the ERG will do to the ordinary individuals in this country.

For the good of the country a GE needs to be called to allow a competent government to run the country and manage us through the challenging times ahead.
 
td53 said:
No one knows what the boring things they should do are though. The consensus has been shredded by 2016 onward and then the situation is such that you have to actually *do* something about stuff and things. The centrism people hark back to (the kind of middle management government of the 90s and 2000s doesn't fit the time.

Everyone agrees they want 'a competent' government, but I think the political landscape is weird and we don't really know what that means. We know what it isn't but that doesn't always help identify what it is.
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Agreed, but it could be Jan ‘25 before the Tories finally leaves Downing Street. Who knows what will be going on by then?
At this rate though it is unlikely the UK will have much road left for any radical action that is in any way expensive.
Maybe a Labour Manifesto that says we are going to generally try to improve things for you for the next five years will sound like Manna from Heaven?
 
bollieboy said:
Unfortunately if the backbenchers don't bring the government down then we are going to have 2 years of this farce as there is no individual in the Tories that could unite them and get any legislation through. Basically the split which has been there for 30 years regarding Europe and the libetarian, free market dreams of the ERG has torn the part asunder as even the more centrist, Brexit supporting MPs have realised the harm that the ERG will do to the ordinary individuals in this country.

For the good of the country a GE needs to be called to allow a competent government to run the country and manage us through the challenging times ahead.
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You have to hope that some Conservatives will put the national interest first. I can't see that happening, although many realise that the current situation is farcical. However there is no clear way out of it for a Conservative.
How long would a government with Sunak in it last for instance? He is hated by many in the PCP and by many members. Mordaunt as PM would still have to deal with the Brexit nutters like Braverman and Baker. Hunt, the chancellor, is certainly an enemy to them and prompted Braverman's resignation. But if you remove a sane chancellor now then the markets are likely to fall again. Truss on the back benches is likely to be a disruptor and feel that she was set up to fail. Call an election now to seek a new mandate and the Conservatives could be literally wiped out. They are fucked - but what about our country?
 
The whole of Parliament is a mess. Every single one of them is on the gravy train looking after their own interests and not thata of the constituents they represent.
a pathetically weak opposition full of extremists, a government more interested in long term contracts for their friends and family and a media who gets off on whipping up hate and anger.
The country is fucked!
 
Markobfc said:
The whole of Parliament is a mess. Every single one of them is on the gravy train looking after their own interests and not thata of the constituents they represent.
a pathetically weak opposition full of extremists, a government more interested in long term contracts for their friends and family and a media who gets off on whipping up hate and anger.
The country is fucked!
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Not true. That is what the right wing want you to believe so that people don't bother voting. There are lots of good MPs of all hues (including Tories).

The right wing has 2 strategies to stay in power and that is to 1) frighten people and 2) demoralise people.

1) If you vote Labour they will destroy the economy and you will end up poorer. Obviously this will not work at the moment hence the need to create another bogeyman to fear (eg wokeism, the anti-growth coalition, etc).

2) Its not worth voting as all politicians are the same and they are all as bad as each other.
 
glasshalffull said:
Agreed, but it could be Jan ‘25 before the Tories finally leaves Downing Street. Who knows what will be going on by then?
At this rate though it is unlikely the UK will have much road left for any radical action that is in any way expensive.
Maybe a Labour Manifesto that says we are going to generally try to improve things for you for the next five years will sound like Manna from Heaven?
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'generally inprove' is the vaguest rhetoric on earth! 🤣

The problem is, that a party that wins is then under big pressure to actually mend stuff.

I think we're reaching a point where democracy and state needs renewal not just stewardship and we've got to the point where it's been so long since anyone but the right wing had any input into power that we're really struggling for answers.

It's probably since the post war consensus collapsed in the 70s that anything other than various flavours of free market led thinking has had any influence at all. Yeah, we still have benefits and such, but that's only cos there'd be anarchy otherwise. Everything is flogged to tender, the centre is just a talking shop and markets dictate.

If the markets and general world stage are in turmoil, it's not easy.

The easy bit for Labour is now. The harder bit will be to affect actual change in the national interest because, yes, the government are incompetent but to me, there's more to it than just 'getting rid of the Tories' - that's a start, but then what?
 
Markobfc said:
The whole of Parliament is a mess. Every single one of them is on the gravy train looking after their own interests and not thata of the constituents they represent.
a pathetically weak opposition full of extremists, a government more interested in long term contracts for their friends and family and a media who gets off on whipping up hate and anger.
The country is fucked!
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I wish Keith was a bit more extreme. He's a man who when invited on a podcast and asked what his favourite thing about football is he answered "football in general and if you push me on it, probably goals" or words to that effect.
 
td53 said:
I wish Keith was a bit more extreme. He's a man who when invited on a podcast and asked what his favourite thing about football is he answered "football in general and if you push me on it, probably goals" or words to that effect.
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He can tell the country his favourite sandwich is a slice of unbuttered white bread in-between two slices of more white bread for all I care as long as he keeps announcing policies such as their net zero goals and a new public energy company
 
td53 said:
I wish Keith was a bit more extreme. He's a man who when invited on a podcast and asked what his favourite thing about football is he answered "football in general and if you push me on it, probably goals" or words to that effect.
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His one big policy announcement was to create a nationalised energy company and a sovereign wealth fund. This is fairly extreme compared to recent Labour leaders and is a long, long way from Nu Labour's free market approach.
 
foggy said:
He can tell the country his favourite sandwich is a slice of unbuttered white bread in-between two slices of more white bread for all I care as long as he keeps announcing policies such as their net zero goals and a new public energy company
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A goal is not a plan. The energy company plan is half arsed and Labour will be trembling at might of the markets and middle england as ever thus. A set of class traitors that always fold when offered the platform to achieve anything. 1945, went halfway and stopped. 1997, made some pretend coppers and some nurseries and not much else...

*this is me being unreasonable and trying to create polorised debate like some other posters do. I am bored. I actually think both things are pretty good ideas. I've possibly undone the attempt to create debate, by debating with myself and presenting both sides of the argument and thus negating the need for debate. I need to work on my technique I think.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
His one big policy announcement was to create a nationalised energy company and a sovereign wealth fund. This is fairly extreme compared to recent Labour leaders and is a long, long way from Nu Labour's free market approach.
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This doesn't change the fact he still said 'football and if you push me on it... goals.' when he could have said 'when outfield players go in goals and look all confused about the way their gloves make their hands feel weird' or about 876 other things.

I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think I'm really in his target audience of swing voters...
 
td53 said:
This doesn't change the fact he still said 'football and if you push me on it... goals.' when he could have said 'when outfield players go in goals and look all confused about the way their gloves make their hands feel weird' or about 876 other things.

I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think I'm really in his target audience of swing voters...
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The question was inane, 'What do you like about football?' - really? It's just a stupid question.
I think he is very conscious of what he says and doesn't want to give the media any little thing to beat him with. If he had said 'beating Spurs', no doubt the Daily Mail would label him as an anti-Semite!
 
td53 said:
A goal is not a plan. The energy company plan is half arsed and Labour will be trembling at might of the markets and middle england as ever thus. A set of class traitors that always fold when offered the platform to achieve anything. 1945, went halfway and stopped. 1997, made some pretend coppers and some nurseries and not much else...

*this is me being unreasonable and trying to create polorised debate like some other posters do. I am bored. I actually think both things are pretty good ideas. I've possibly undone the attempt to create debate, by debating with myself and presenting both sides of the argument and thus negating the need for debate. I need to work on my technique I think.
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A goal is saying "we will reach net zero and have British businesses actually involved in it". Announcing targets for on-shore/off-shore wind and solar while creating a new energy provider is a plan. No party has in-depth detailed reports on all their policies up to possibly two years and a few months before the election. But in your last post you were focusing on Keir Starmer talking about football, so this seems a slightly unfair raising of the bar.

I'd also recommend you having another look at the domestic policy achievements Labour made under Blair.
 
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