C19 Has Warrington found the magic bullet?

Don_K_Lasher

Don_K_Lasher

Well-known member
I was puzzled by reports that the Dyson ventilators which had been commissioned in a panick have now been cancelled.

In an unconnected story I read about an alternative much cheaper and more effective piece of kit.

It appears that Warrington have been trialling a much simpler device which they call a 'black box', used for breathing disorders during sleep.
The ventilators have a 50/50 success rate, but they are claiming that after using this black box to see an improvement in many patients after 15 mins!

Too good to be true or a godsend?

Sky News: Coronavirus: Hospital cuts COVID-19 death rates with 'black boxes' for sleep disorder.
news.sky.com

Coronavirus: Hospital cuts COVID-19 death rates with 'black boxes' for sleep disorder

Clinicians say there has been less need for the more intrusive ventilators and they have had a far quicker patient recovery rate.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
Don_K_Lasher said:
I was puzzled by reports that the Dyson ventilators which had been commissioned in a panick have now been cancelled.

In an unconnected story I read about an alternative much cheaper and more effective piece of kit.

It appears that Warrington have been trialling a much simpler device which they call a 'black box', used for breathing disorders during sleep.
The ventilators have a 50/50 success rate, but they are claiming that after using this black box to see an improvement in many patients after 15 mins!

Too good to be true or a godsend?

Sky News: Coronavirus: Hospital cuts COVID-19 death rates with 'black boxes' for sleep disorder.
news.sky.com

Coronavirus: Hospital cuts COVID-19 death rates with 'black boxes' for sleep disorder

Clinicians say there has been less need for the more intrusive ventilators and they have had a far quicker patient recovery rate.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
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Makes perfect sense to me. They are also easy to set up at home too I believe.
 
Don_K_Lasher said:
It it really a panacea or sky click bait?
I really can't tell
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They are well used for nocturnal breathing issues for sure. I suppose if they supply enough oxygen to compensate for what the virus prevents the patient from getting then why not 🤔
 
Lala said:
They are well used for nocturnal breathing issues for sure. I suppose if they supply enough oxygen to compensate for what the virus prevents the patient from getting then why not 🤔
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I guess they are increasing the Oxygen and the ambient pressure too, by applying a mask.

This is how aircrew breath in unpressurised cockpits.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
It came up weeks ago that they were trying this there, guess it's working, the lack of intrusion and sedation must be a massive plus to recovery.
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Thanks Lytham
I guess a non invasive process must be much more comfortable for the patients and much less duress for the supporting staff.

The mechanics of the device is similar to that used by aircrew in a non pressurised cockpit at high altitude, so it peeked my curiosity.

High levels of O2, breathed at a pressure higher than the ambient allows 02 to cross the lungs' porous tissue, and hence the blood can more easily absorb the O2.
At a certain altitude, without the increased pressure very little (if any) O2 can cross over from the lung to the blood.
(Preston Tuson College 1978 Thursday evening HNC classes 😊)
 
Thats great i know someone who has one of these at home for Sleep aponea wears it every night.
Worrying to see the number of hospital cases in a North West town like Warrington in the 100s.
 
I think the main point is that these small sleep apnoea devices seem to be cheap and readily available for the hospital so the patients get to use them as soon as they come in. It’s the early use that is helping people with breathing difficulties. It seems that high duty ventilation is a last resort when a patient has gone so far down as to be 50:50.
 
There’s been a big kerfuffle over the internet after the release (a few weeks ago) of a YouTube video by a Doctor Cameron Kyle Siddell.

Essentially he was suggesting that high pressure mechanical ventilation was potentially doing more harm than good and that Covid 19 was not clinically presenting like a typical respiratory syndrome. He claimed it was more like altitude sickness.

The issue with CPAP and other non-invasive types of ventilation apparently, is that is creates aerosols and so increases the risk of transmission. If they are proving successful though, then that has to be a positive...

Here’s hoping
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
There’s been a big kerfuffle over the internet after the release (a few weeks ago) of a YouTube video by a Doctor Cameron Kyle Siddell.

Essentially he was suggesting that high pressure mechanical ventilation was potentially doing more harm than good and that Covid 19 was not clinically presenting like a typical respiratory syndrome. He claimed it was more like altitude sickness.

The issue with CPAP and other non-invasive types of ventilation apparently, is that is creates aerosols and so increases the risk of transmission. If they are proving successful though, then that has to be a positive...

Here’s hoping
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For ever theory there always appears to be a contrary 'expert' who tries to shoot it down.

Bearing in mind, air which is rich in O2 is breathed by aircrew at high altitude, let's hope this particular 'expert' is wrong.
 
Siddelll was talking specifically about invasive ventilation and not CPAP. He was saying that high pressure invasive ventilation on a mechanical ventilator was essentially ripping people’s lungs to shreds.

In summary he was saying patients needed oxygen, but not pressure. As most were quite capable of breathing for themselves.

This likely supports the idea of less invasive forms of oxygen treatment.

I was saying, however that in general terms, it is widely accepted that CPAP presents dangers for aerosol transmission (which happened in the SARS outbreak) and that’s why they prefer invasive ventilation.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Siddelll was talking specifically about invasive ventilation and not CPAP. He was saying that high pressure invasive ventilation on a mechanical ventilator was essentially ripping people’s lungs to shreds.

In summary he was saying patients needed oxygen, but not pressure. As most were quite capable of breathing for themselves.

This likely supports the idea of less invasive forms of oxygen treatment.

I was saying, however that in general terms, it is widely accepted that CPAP presents dangers for aerosol transmission (which happened in the SARS outbreak) and that’s why they prefer invasive ventilation.
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What a mess!
They (whoever they are) haven't even provided a basic risk mitigation plan for using basic equipment to treat an infectious desease


Let's hope The WHO, other organisation, and governments get their act together before the next pademic.
 
Don_K_Lasher said:
What a mess!
They (whoever they are) haven't even provided a basic risk mitigation plan for using basic equipment to treat an infectious desease


Let's hope The WHO, other organisation, and governments get their act together before the next pademic.
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Can’t agree more. I remember reading government online pandemic advice when we thought we were going to be hit by Sars.
Evidently we had little real idea of how to cope in practice and there will be a hell of a lot of government information needing some comprehensive rework.
 
I heard a doctor stating that the use of a ventilator is akin to using a Ferrari to drive to the corner shop and smashing straight through the shop window.

Due to the invasive nature of the ventilator it's great to hear that an alternative could be helpful.
 
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One of the main issues with the ventilators for those with the most serious breathing difficulties was the ability to “wean” the patient off the breathing apparatus after being reliant on it to do the breathing for them. As the patient recovers current conventional high tech ventilators harmonise with the patient’s breathing and allow the patient to “take back control” to coin a phrase.

This is the reason the F1 consortium and ultimately the Dyson venture were shelved as they would have just produced breathing assistance machines -it looks like the Government are doing what they should have done from the start and gone with “ramping up” production with the producers of current ventilators.

Fingers crossed though that the Warrington experiment assists with the less intensive care cases as every bit helps and that the capacity in the NHS looks to be coping (perhaps not the staff though who certainly deserve more than a clap on a Thursday)
 
dealing with Low Oxygen levels early seems to have a positive effect as many patients had developed very low Oxygen Levels at home without even realising. Well worth investing in a little Oxygen Saturation Monitor just in case...It might just save your life 👍
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
dealing with Low Oxygen levels early seems to have a positive effect as many patients had developed very low Oxygen Levels at home without even realising. Well worth investing in a little Oxygen Saturation Monitor just in case...It might just save your life 👍
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I bought one last week. Wife and myself been checking levels each day. People have been presenting at hospital with saturation levels down to 50% and still been coherent - at those levels a lot of lung damage has already been done If your level drops below 90% you should be seeking medical advice.
 
Funnily enough I nearly bought something similar after being ill in late February so scared I was of being like that again.
Are the actual cpap machines available to purchase publicly then?
 
The Oxygen Saturation Monitor is a small clip that goes on the end of your index finger and fives pulse rate and oxygen level. People do have CPAP machines at home for Sleep Apnea, but not sure of you can buy them or whether you need to have one prescribed...Presumably there will be safety risks, but I dunno.
 
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