Bloody Sunday, 21 November, 1920
- Thread starter Recidivist3
- Start date
Ooh It’s a Corner
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Fuck off
Recidivist3
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very grown uptangerinenotorange
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Isn't it the done thing these days to expunge these events from history?
Tangerinenick
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Yup awful day. So was the 1987 Enniskillen Bombing Where the IRA exploded the bomb in Enniskillen. They blew up (murdered) 11 innocent Protestant civilians in probably the most sacred day of their year commemorating their war dead. Both terrible events.
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1966_and_all_that
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I'm not sure that social media is mature enough to discuss this sort of stuff in a mature, dispassionate manner.
Shandypants
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We (The British) have a terrible record in Ireland. Before people begin the nonsense of calling me an IRA sympathiser, I was horrified by the death of two young lads in Warrington and the Enniskillen bomb, awful stuff. I was also haunted for years by the live footage of the two soldiers being dragged out their cars at a funeral, horrendous stuff. The Irish situation has a long deep history and I'm certain that if we had been born on the other side of the sea, we would have a dislike for the British. Of late I've read more on the history of Ireland I can understand that.
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1966_and_all_that
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The Irish certainly do have good, historical reasons for hating us. None of those reasons justify murder.
bleach51
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..so why did the original poster post it....clearly to make an anti British point.
it is no wonder we live in a divided world....how many wars are still ongoing and then there is Trump..and yet he chose to post this on What is a football supporters site.
...and I make no apology for agreeing with ooh it’s a corner
1966_and_all_that
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Bleach51, you come across as one of the posters I should take seriously but this one takes the biscuit. How dare you assume I'm anti-British! Take your unjustified opinions and stuff them where there sun don't shine.
One of THE worst aspects of social media is people making ridiculous assumptions based on nothing but your assumed prejudices.
Cut it out!
Shandypants
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Take your rose tinted glasses off and look at how the British charged round the globe. At primary school in the 70s this was glorified. I recall teachers showing on a globe how much we owned. The gory bits were omitted from all that
bleach51
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66 ...I misread who posted this response and then edited it...not meant for you so i apologise...and your point is well meant.
andoverhantsseasider
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A 65-year-old man has been arrested in Belfast in connection with the Provisional IRA’s 1974 Birmingham pub bombings that killed 21 people.
BFC_BFC_BFC
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I must admit, I did wonder myself what the point in posting this on here was really.
bleach51
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Shandy you need to come out of that dream AGAIN...unless you haven’t noticed it is now 2020 not 1970 (or even more so a hundred or more years prior to that ) so strange as it seems things have moved on since then.
...and if we are so shit why is it so many from our so called old colonial days have and still want to come to live and work here.
BFC_BFC_BFC
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I never knew that...must have been a nightmare... how did people go on for Puttees?
Recidivist3
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An interesting cross section of comments about a video commemorating the 100th anniversary of the killing of 14 people who went to watch or, in one case, play in, a Gaelic Football match.
The murders at Enniskillen, terrible yes, the murder of the members of the Miami Show Band, equally terrible, yes, but the video referred to this terrible event that happened one hundred years ago today
are the people who died that day, not worth remembering ?
The murders at Enniskillen, terrible yes, the murder of the members of the Miami Show Band, equally terrible, yes, but the video referred to this terrible event that happened one hundred years ago today
are the people who died that day, not worth remembering ?
Lost Seasider
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Let us also remember the 15 people murdered by the IRA earlier in the day that was the proximate cause of the event.
- Lieutenant Peter Ames (British Army Intelligence Officer) – Upper Mount Street
- Lieutenant Henry Angliss (covername 'Patrick McMahon', British Army Intelligence Officer) – Lower Mount Street
- Lieutenant Geoffrey Baggallay (British Army Court-Martial Officer) – 119 Lower Baggot St
- Lieutenant George Bennett (British Army Intelligence Officer) – Upper Mount Street
- Major Charles Dowling (British Army Intelligence Officer) – Pembroke Street
- Sergeant John Fitzgerald (RIC officer) – Earlsfort Terrace
- Auxiliary Frank Garniss (RIC Auxiliary, former British Army lieutenant) – Northumberland Road
- Lieutenant Donald MacLean (British Army Intelligence Officer) – Morehampton Road
- Patrick MacCormack (civilian, former British Army RAVC captain) – Gresham Hotel
- Lieutenant-Colonel Hugh Montgomery (British Army Staff Officer) – Pembroke Street (died on 10 December)
- Auxiliary Cecil Morris (RIC Auxiliary, former British Army captain) – Northumberland Road
- Captain William Newberry (British Army Court-Martial Officer) – 92 Lower Baggot Street
- Captain Leonard Price (British Army Intelligence Officer) – Pembroke Street
- Thomas Smith (civilian, landlord of MacLean) – Morehampton Road
- Leonard Wilde (civilian and possible Intelligence agent, former British Army lieutenant) – Gresham Hotel
Johnno
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Fuckin tragic. Those were brutal days, best in the past. If only the IRA hadnt massacred 15 Brits in their beds the night before, maybe others might not have wanted revenge, however misguided.
Johnno
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Beat me to it Lost.
Lytham_fy8
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It's the ** politics board.
B_Side_The_C_Side
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Maybe for those interested in cut and pasting Wiki pages, you should take a few minutes to read the story of the 'Cairo Gang' and why they (and others) were in Dublin and what they were sent there to do......and why they were ultimately killed.
Then read some of the stories of the 'Black & Tans' and how they brought terror to the country with widespread killing, burning and assassinations that went on without any control by the British.
But.....as Mr Orwell put so distinctly.....The nationalist not only disapproves of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
We.....The British have a rather diverse history in lands we conquered and ruled over during colonialism.....and considering we still celebrate the death of Guido Fawkes from 1605......
Then read some of the stories of the 'Black & Tans' and how they brought terror to the country with widespread killing, burning and assassinations that went on without any control by the British.
But.....as Mr Orwell put so distinctly.....The nationalist not only disapproves of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
We.....The British have a rather diverse history in lands we conquered and ruled over during colonialism.....and considering we still celebrate the death of Guido Fawkes from 1605......
bleach51
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I did not pick the politics Covid or whatever board ( it simply was on the list of new postings) and is this really politics or more like a post of what seems like an attempt to encourage shear hatred( and maybe stupidly I fell for it) ....very sad that on a day we won an away league game for second time in a row we are discussing this.
as For you lfy8 ..thanks for the advice....oh and I see Man U are having their usual homer ref...
...just in case you haven’t noticed...a football related comment
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune
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And you please retract your social media posts in which you abuse posters before you call others out. I refer to you calling me a piece of poo yesterday when you were in the wrong.
Good job I don’t take this place seriously.
dodgy_surname
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Nice to blow top of the league, proper tangerine history 
catinstalbans
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Presumably then you feel that it was acceptable for the Germans to round up civilians to execute when the resistance during the Second World War, killed one of their soldiers seeing as they were just following the same principle.
1966_and_all_that
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Yes, done.
bleach51
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DSOTL...I actually apologised to 66...I thought his post was from the originator of this thread.
I stupidly reacted to Something Whereas I should have have simply kept my thoughts to myself...I blame it partly on the extra glass or maybe two
of wine( celebratory of course for our second League away win ) and my occassional rush of blood( no not him).I keep telling myself to ignore anything political or Covid related and yet I never quite learn.
Think I need to take a pre Xmas sabbatical and stay off the board...at least to post....unless it is purely football related and even then I probably upset someone
1966_and_all_that
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Thanks for that Bleach. I can see it was a genuine mistake.DSOTL...I actually apologised to 66...I thought his post was from the originator of this thread.
I stupidly reacted to Something Whereas I should have have simply kept my thoughts to myself...I blame it partly on the extra glass or maybe two
I keep telling myself to ignore anything political or Covid related and yet I never quite learn.
Think I need to take a pre Xmas sabbatical and stay off the board...at least to post....unless it is purely football related and even then I probably upset someone
bollieboy
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Thought provoking report from Belfast by a Southern Irish BBC reporter in 1973. Not really connected with OP but interesting. The comment from the British army officer is one of the things that strike me. I am sure some of those who hate the IRA would have been members of the IRA if they had been born in different circumstances.
1966_and_all_that
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Absolutely crucial comment there Bollie. Any of us, born into different circumstances, could be the opposite of who we are. Which is why we need to draw breath before being too certain in ourselves.
1966_and_all_that
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Anyone who wants to put the Good Friday Agreement at risk with the possibility of going back to that, is a maniac.
Old_Laytonian
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I thought King Billy might have posted on this thread.
so it is
so it is
TheSpiritOf53
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I don't know much about this event but from what you are saying the British army massacred civilians as a reprisal for targeted attacks by the IRA against military targets.
You aren't portraying the British army in a very good light there. In fact, your post says to me that the IRA were the more moral of the 2 militaries in this conflict.
BFC_BFC_BFC
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In fairness, I don't think anyone suggested it was a 'reprisal', but merely that there was a causal link
TheSpiritOf53
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I can't see what the distinction is.
There was a causal link between the assassination of Heydrich and the Lidice massacre.
The Lidice massacre was carried as a reprisal for the assassination of Heydrich.
Both statements are true and don't contradict each other.
As I said I didn't know anything about this event and might be missing something but it looked to me like Lost Seasider was claiming unarmed civilians were attacked to avenge the targeted killing of Army intelligence officers.
BFC_BFC_BFC
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The distinction is clear... he said one thing that did not relate at all to a suggestion of ‘revenge’ and you chose to put words into his mouth “What you are saying is..” and then essentially create an argument with yourself.
It’s a sensitive enough subject at the best of times, without manufacturing arguments that don’t exist.
TheSpiritOf53
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As I say it isn't
If it wasn't reprisal then what was it. As I said it wasn't an event that I was aware of (itself noteworthy re the debate about re-writing history) but once you accept that they are connected I can't see beyond reprisal as the motive for the attack. An attack on civilians to teach them a lesson. If not explain what I'm missing.
BFC_BFC_BFC
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I'm not sure...
Perhaps it was a reaction or over-reaction to a percieved threat, based on recent experience?
There's certainly nothing in Losts post to suggest reprisal though, that (as you suggest) is perhaps just something you personally cannot 'see past'
Johnno
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The raid on the game was as a result of information received that some of the gunmen would be at the game.
The only Army troops in the ground during the raid were the crews of the two armoured cars. Witness accounts (both military/police and civilian victims) all agree that the armoured cars only fired above the crowd, and no casualties were sustained in that section of the ground.
The casualties occurred as Police,Auxiliaries and members of the Black and Tans pulled up in their trucks and disembarked. People in the crowd started to run, the Black and Tans and Auxies claimed they were fired at first, so opened fire. Civilian witness’s denied their claims.
The Auxies and B&T’s were well known for brutality against civilians, so after 15 of their colleagues being murdered in their sleep it’s not a far reach to think they wanted some excuse to get some pay back.
When you’re fighting against a guerilla army, that gets aid and support from a significant section of the civilian public, you tend to lose a bit of sympathy towards that public. However wrong that might seem, it’s how it is.
1966_and_all_that
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I think that partial ideas of what happened in history miss the point. The overriding issue of the partition in Ireland was a mass-support for independence in the Southern provinces among the resident population and an increasingly authoritarian attempt to suppress it by the British. Both sides used terror tactics but in the end the inevitable happened.
Arguing around the minutiae of incidents is pointless.
Arguing around the minutiae of incidents is pointless.
Lost Seasider
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That is absolutely not what I was saying.
First off, I don't think it was an intended act, more likely a result of poor communication and confused orders than anything else.
My point was that it was not a one way street and the events were part of a larger picture, something that the OP seemed to want to gloss over.
TheSpiritOf53
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Unless they were fired on which they weren't there is no excuse for the British army to open fire on unarmed British civilians (as they were then) at a footy match though it wasn't the British army doing it if we read Johnno's post so it is moot anyway
TheSpiritOf53
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I would say that if you don't have sympathy for the public then you aren't welcome and shouldn't be there but apart from that thanks for the details. As I said this event wasn't something I was aware of and my only knowledge is what I've gleaned from this thread. The fact that the auxiliaries did it rather than the army puts it in a whole new light
TheSpiritOf53
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Fair enough. I read something into it that wasn't there. I am amazed though that this is something I've never heard of at the time Ireland was part of the UK and in terms of death toll it was similar to Peterloo.
BFC_BFC_BFC
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I can see that Lost Seasider has clarified your misunderstanding.
I've not made any excuses for anyone shooting anyone.
Lost Seasider
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I guess it just gets drowned out by the wider war of independence and subsequent civil war.