Afghanistan

M

Matesrates

Well-known member
Looks like the Taliban are going to take over after the US and UK pulled out.
Nightmare scenario for the west, no doubt there’ll be a resurgence of terrorist attracts around the world.
 
Matesrates said:
Looks like the Taliban are going to take over after the US and UK pulled out.
Nightmare scenario for the west, no doubt there’ll be a resurgence of terrorist attracts around the world.
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Did anybody really think anything different would happen? Did anybody really think anything different would happen? Very often had this discussion with a mate, in that part of the world get rid of one arsehole there is another ready to take its place at the first opportunity.
 
EagleDay said:
Did anybody really think anything different would happen? Did anybody really think anything different would happen? Very often had this discussion with a mate, in that part of the world get rid of one arsehole there is another ready to take its place at the first opportunity.
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Have to agree with you here Eagle. Afghanistan is not a nation, just a territory fought over but terrorist groups. The Soviets tried to quell it in the 80's and failed. That should have been a lesson to George W. But no, in we went, NATO led by the Yanks. Loads of deaths later and the Taliban are back. What a mess. The answer, if there is one, is to leave it alone and cut the drug supply around our coasts: Europe and America.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Have to agree with you here Eagle. Afghanistan is not a nation, just a territory fought over but terrorist groups. The Soviets tried to quell it in the 80's and failed. That should have been a lesson to George W. But no, in we went, NATO led by the Yanks. Loads of deaths later and the Taliban are back. What a mess. The answer, if there is one, is to leave it alone and cut the drug supply around our coasts: Europe and America.
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“Afghanistan is not a nation”.

And that is at the heart of the problem. It probably never has been. A little like all those countries in Africa and the Middle and Far East; plus South America etc.; that were drawn on a map without much regard to tribal boundaries and the naturally fluid “borders” that had existed before then.

Our latest involvement in Afghanistan isn’t the first time. We went in during the early to mid 1800s thinking we could do the same as we’d done to India. Divide and conquer. We couldn’t. We tried the same in the 1920s when we had planes and bombs and they didn’t. That didn’t work. The Russians/Soviets tried the same and that didn’t work either.

I’m not saying we’re responsible for the atrocities that will follow when the Taliban take control. That’s down to the people who commit the atrocities. But we can’t claim we haven’t played our part.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Have to agree with you here Eagle. Afghanistan is not a nation, just a territory fought over but terrorist groups. The Soviets tried to quell it in the 80's and failed. That should have been a lesson to George W. But no, in we went, NATO led by the Yanks. Loads of deaths later and the Taliban are back. What a mess. The answer, if there is one, is to leave it alone and cut the drug supply around our coasts: Europe and America.
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I think the mission could've been achieved with sufficient time and resources, any hope of that went up in smoke once attention moved on to Iraq.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I think the mission could've been achieved with sufficient time and resources, any hope of that went up in smoke once attention moved on to Iraq.
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Sufficient time and resources?

We were there 20 years.

Bombs don’t come cheap. So that’s plenty of resources.

And that’s before you count the lives.
 
It's a disgrace and slap in the face to all the young men and women that sacrificed their lives, limbs and mental health. They were sent out to do a job and the effort and results magnificent. Unfortunately it must have been known by the people in power that it would end up costing billions and a military presence needed for many, many years. To then turn around and say the Talliban have changed and ain't the same as they used to be so we can now all go home is beyond belief. How certain presidents and prime ministers can sleep at night knowing they have blood on their hands.
 
The British and US supposedly trained 350,000 Afghans over the years and rebuilt the Army and security forces.

Sounds like 345,000 have fecked off and joined the Taliban to me.

How can so many heavily armed troops and up to date equipment be rolled over so quickly?
 
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Seasider1 said:
It's a disgrace and slap in the face to all the young men and women that sacrificed their lives, limbs and mental health. They were sent out to do a job and the effort and results magnificent. Unfortunately it must have been known by the people in power that it would end up costing billions and a military presence needed for many, many years. To then turn around and say the Talliban have changed and ain't the same as they used to be so we can now all go home is beyond belief. How certain presidents and prime ministers can sleep at night knowing they have blood on their hands.
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We can't stay forever and probably should have never gone in the first place. You could argue that learning our lesson, cutting our losses and avoiding future casualties is the best way to honour the dead and injured.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
The British and US supposedly trained 60,000 Afghans over the years.

Sounds like 50,000 have joined the Taliban to me.
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That’s because it isn’t a nation. As we understand it.

They take the training and the wages. And then they go back to their tribe. Which is where their loyalty lies.

And The Taliban isn’t the way we think of it either. It’s just a loose alliance of tribes that think they may be able to advance the interests of their tribe by entering into agreements with other tribes.
 
Has anybody mentioned the spineless Brits yet?

I guess things might have worked out differently if we could have won an Olympic medal for being there
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Sufficient time and resources?

We were there 20 years.

Bombs don’t come cheap. So that’s plenty of resources.

And that’s before you count the lives.
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Always second fiddle to Iraq, if the resources that were wasted there were redirected to Afghanistan then maybe something lasting would've been achieved.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Our latest involvement in Afghanistan isn’t the first time. We went in during the early to mid 1800s thinking we could do the same as we’d done to India. Divide and conquer. We couldn’t. We tried the same in the 1920s when we had planes and bombs and they didn’t. That didn’t work. The Russians/Soviets tried the same and that didn’t work either.
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It was described as “The Great Game” in the 19thC with Britain and Russia fighting for control, ostensibly for trade routes. Nothing much has changed since. The Afghans are tribal warriors forming loose alliances to suit changing times.

The Soviets invaded in 1980 because the CIA/USA was using the tribes to agitate against a Soviet-friendly Govt with the aim of spreading that political destabilisation to neighbouring Asian Soviet republics, such as Turkmenistan and so threatening its vast oil reserves.

So the USA supplied huge quantities of arms to the Afghan tribes, through Pakistan, particularly shoulder-launched heat-seeking Stinger missiles which negated the Soviet’s helicopter gunship advantage. Basically, the USA created the Mujahideen (the “Taliban”) by integrating the tribes so they could be supplied. After the Soviets pulled out in 1988, these tribes turned on their own country, having “freed” it, with the agitation of Bin Laden etc, they decided to export their fundamentalism into Pakistan and other neighbouring states such as Azerbaijan and Chechnya, as well as attacking “infidel” USA interests.

So the USA moved in after 9/11 in 2001 and got themselves mired in the Afghani catastrophe. Then the arms suppliers became the Russians fighting another proxy war and the AK47s and RPGs flooded in. Now the USA and the UK have pulled out we are all back to square one, as was the case in 1988. And so the poor Afghani people suffer again. After triggering all this chaos, the West has abandoned them.
 
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The Americans bottled it as usual . They can’t understand why they can’t sort it with conscripts whereas we have professional soldiers
 
As others have said we tried and failed in the 19th century, Soviets in late 70/80's and failed now the US alliance has failed

The place is a corrupt, tribal society with a taste for medieval religious fundamentalism

Add in the very dark forces within Pakistan and we were on hiding to nothing

The Afghan army with some exceptions took the training and wages and capitulated

Back to square one

The only hope is they don't decide to start exporting terror as we will be one of the first targets on the lists
We have enough of our own Islamic beserkers who will take up the cause

I understand the USA had to respond very strongly after 9/11 but surely we must learn from these costly adventures
 
Still think we are better letting them get on with it, and investing a fraction of the money asking the Arab nations to control any excesses there?

It’s not our job to police these places. It’s not our job to convert them to western values either.
As much as I deplore their medieval attitudes, any time we intervene we just make it worse at massive financial and social cost.
 
No outsiders’win’ in Afghanistan as Mex says, history proves it. Originally Bush didn’t help matters when he blended Al Qaeda with the Taliban, when in effect they were two totally different entities, the Taliban weren’t interested in international Jihad, only ruling Afghanistan after yet another Civil war raged across the Country. We should never have gone in there, so many wasted young lives for nothing. Bin Laden could’ve been tracked down eventually with other means, without invading and creating bedlam in a whole country. Same in Iraq, Bush wanted someone to burn after 9/11 and ended up helping to create more chaos costing thousands of lives!
 
Mexboroseasider said:
“Afghanistan is not a nation”.

And that is at the heart of the problem. It probably never has been. A little like all those countries in Africa and the Middle and Far East; plus South America etc.; that were drawn on a map without much regard to tribal boundaries and the naturally fluid “borders” that had existed before then.

Our latest involvement in Afghanistan isn’t the first time. We went in during the early to mid 1800s thinking we could do the same as we’d done to India. Divide and conquer. We couldn’t. We tried the same in the 1920s when we had planes and bombs and they didn’t. That didn’t work. The Russians/Soviets tried the same and that didn’t work either.

I’m not saying we’re responsible for the atrocities that will follow when the Taliban take control. That’s down to the people who commit the atrocities. But we can’t claim we haven’t played our part.
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As I say, we can only try to deal with the consequences of that territory.
 
Chunkylad said:
What do you think we should do Recedivist?

Id rather we withdrew. I’d rather we hadn’t gone in the first place but that’s history so what is best now?
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That’s the question.

And the answer is that, without the US, we can’t stay there militarily. Otherwise it’d be British troops fighting right now to keep the Taliban out of the regional capitals. And frankly we don’t have the resources in terms of manpower or hardware to do that. And when the bodies started to come home at levels we haven’t seen since WW2, I don’t think we’d have the appetite for it either.

So withdraw certainly. And hopefully learn a lesson. But I’m not sure we will.
 
No ones bothered anymore about the Taliban taking over the country.
But as soon as we start seeing pictures/videos of innocent men women & children being killed the West will be in uproar once again.
Why is it only the west reacts to such inhumane despicable acts? How come we never see the likes of Saudi Arabia to name but one never coming out and saying it as it is?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
No ones bothered anymore about the Taliban taking over the country.
But as soon as we start seeing pictures/videos of innocent men women & children being killed the West will be in uproar once again.
Why is it only the west reacts to such inhumane despicable acts? How come we never see the likes of Saudi Arabia coming out and saying it as it is?
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Because Saudi Arabia isn’t a democracy and doesn’t have a free press?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Because Saudi Arabia isn’t a democracy and doesn’t have a free press?
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Other Arab countries do though but you never ever hear from them.
Yes we had an Arab coalition when Saddam went in to Kuwait as it was a cash rich country with massive gold & oil reserves but no one wants to know Afghanistan the arse hole of the world with no money no hope and no future.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Other Arab countries do though but you never ever hear from them.
Yes we had an Arab coalition when Saddam went in to Kuwait as it was a cash rich country with massive gold & oil reserves but no one wants to know Afghanistan the arse hole of the world with no money no hope and no future.
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Yes. Plus Iraq (secular and militaristic) was an existential threat to the neighbouring countries. If they could do that to Kuwait then none of the surrounding Arab countries were safe.

Afghanistan wasn’t the same threat to the Arab countries. Hence no coalition. The Taliban just wanted absolute control within their borders. If they’d stuck at that they’d have been left alone by the West as well as by the Arabs. Their mistake was inviting in Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
 
We’re pulling out at the same time China are moving in, partly to drive the belt and road initiative. It feels like a ‘let them deal with it’ situation, as China will work with any type of government. They’ve been schmoozing the Taliban for over a week.
 
Seaside Aggro said:
We’re pulling out at the same time China are moving in, partly to drive the belt and road initiative. It feels like a ‘let them deal with it’ situation, as China will work with any type of government. They’ve been schmoozing the Taliban for over a week.
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Well good luck to the Chinese. And good luck to the Taliban. Marriage made in Heaven.
 
Matesrates said:
Looks like the Taliban are going to take over after the US and UK pulled out.
Nightmare scenario for the west, no doubt there’ll be a resurgence of terrorist attracts around the world.
Click to expand...
Is anyone really surprised ?
 
Ruperthoop said:
Deeply worrying developments. Bush and Blair should never have meddled in the first place.
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You have to think about the immediate post 9/11 mood. I agree that the UK should have handled it differently - although we are NATO members and it was a NATO response in support of the USA - but the States were always going to do it.
 
Recidivist3 said:
Perhaps they could all run away like we have

Fingers crossed that trouble doesn’t follow us home, hey
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I give up. I thought you might actually be a sensible poster and provide views or ideas on what you would do. Instead I get a childish response like that?
 
Chunky, perhaps you want me to follow your ‘now we’ve fucked off it’s history’ approach.

The people who have been focused on this issue for years and years have royally fucked up but you want me to provide views and ideas as to what I would do. Forget what I would do, let’s talk about what we will do. I’m not going to do anything and neither are you so you wanting my solutions is a waste of all our time

I gave my view, if General Sir Richard Barrons can’t convince you that we are a spineless nation where Afghanistan is concerned, then how do you expect me to

Enjoy your day
 
There's a train of thought that says - "if your country isn't under attack, then don't get involved". But we did get involved, resulting in partial stability and loss / and injury of many of our brave boys and girls. In supporting Biden's decision to withdraw all troops, we've left one heck of a mess behind us. It's a complex, no win situation & I don't have any answers.
 
When Churchill retired he was asked have you any advice for your successors? Yes he said Never Never Never invade Afghanistan but leaders just don’t learn from history🤷🏽‍♂️
 
If the US had had a proper plan and focused on Afghanistan after 9/11 instead of doubling down on Iraq we might just be in a better place with it all now.
I guess this will revert to funding for arms and maybe drones from outside of Afghanistan for both sides to sustain a long and bloody civil war.
 
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