we're heading for a hung Parliament....

seasideone said:
Don’t worry you are entitled to be wrong 🤣🤣🤣

Didn’t you quote ‘Canceling HS2’ as extreme right earlier in this thread?

If not somebody did and that’s the issues I am pointing to - politicians and people are always trying to pigeon hole things in a shocking way, where they shouldn’t be!
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Looks like a deflection and is not really answering the substantive point.
Some of what the UK government has done looks like it is straight out of the steps to fascism playbook as I think I and others have demonstrated on this thread.
Certainly the centre ground of British politics is further to the right now than before.
John Major for instance would, I suggest, currently be more at home inside the Labour party than his own Conservative and he was previously Thatcher's chancellor.
Moderate centerist Tories like Ken Clarke, David Gauke, Anny Soubry and Michael Heseltine have been purged from the party. Many others have left of their own accord. Johnson had some of the hallmarks of a fascist leader, often appointing people on loyalty to him more than ability. He continually ignored established protocols and at times the rule of law.
All of this means that the Conservatives are currently further to the right than at any point in post war history. Whether this constitutes 'extreme' is a matter of semantics.
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
Looks like a deflection and is not really answering the substantive point.
Some of what the UK government has done looks like it is straight out of the steps to fascism playbook as I think I and others have demonstrated
Certainly the centre ground of British politics is further to the right now than before.
John Major for instance would, I suggest, currently be more at home inside the Labour party than his own Conservative and he was previously Thatcher's chancellor.
Moderate centerist Tories like Ken Clarke, David Gauke and Michael Heseltine have been purged from the party.
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No you haven’t demonstrated the above.

I agree politics are further right but using the cancelation of a train line to demonstrate extremism is somewhat pathetic.

Arguably the furthest right policy is stop the boats - but putting people in hotels with, food and healthcare is not extremist, or for that matter shipping them off elsewhere for processing while you look after them is not extremist either.

The problem here really is the quality of politicians on all sides, the ones you mentioned above were all good people whether you agreed with them or not.

This shower isn’t fit to lace their boots, so the spin doctors and marketeers come up with slogans, adds and pigeon holes that scare or motivate people - regardless of whether they are correct or not.

…and many people listen and some are daft enough to think canceling a train line or reducing the top rate of tax is extreme right.

Now Trump is another rather bad story!
 
seasideone said:
No you haven’t demonstrated the above.

I agree politics are further right but using the cancelation of a train line to demonstrate extremism is somewhat pathetic.

Arguably the furthest right policy is stop the boats - but putting people in hotels with, food and healthcare is not extremist, or for that matter shipping them off elsewhere for processing while you look after them is not extremist either.

The problem here really is the quality of politicians on all sides, the ones you mentioned above were all good people whether you agreed with them or not.

This shower isn’t fit to lace their boots, so the spin doctors and marketeers come up with slogans, adds and pigeon holes that scare or motivate people - regardless of whether they are correct or not.

…and many people listen and some are daft enough to think canceling a train line or reducing the top rate of tax is extreme right.

Now Trump is another rather bad story!
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You are right in that cancelling HS2 and reducing the top rate of tax are perhaps rightwing policies but not extreme right (and yes it was me that put them). So i will concede that so you don't have to mention them in every post.

However the following policies / actions are more extreme;
  • Undermining the independent judiciary (the government have done this fairly frequently)
  • ignoring the constitution and breaking the law (peroging of parliament)
  • curtailing the right to protest
  • stuffing the media with pliant operatives (the BBC)
  • undermining and demonising apolitical organisations when they don't do what you want (National Trust, RNLI)
  • using scare tactics and stories to mobilise the public (stop the boats anybody)
  • over simplistic analysis and policies (Rwanda)

Fascist politicians do this sort of thing all of the time and it is sad to see the UK government doing these things. Like I said it depends what you define as extremism - we certainly have had a sort of nationalism in recent years.
 
seasideone said:
No you haven’t demonstrated the above.

I agree politics are further right but using the cancelation of a train line to demonstrate extremism is somewhat pathetic.

Arguably the furthest right policy is stop the boats - but putting people in hotels with, food and healthcare is not extremist, or for that matter shipping them off elsewhere for processing while you look after them is not extremist either.

The problem here really is the quality of politicians on all sides, the ones you mentioned above were all good people whether you agreed with them or not.

This shower isn’t fit to lace their boots, so the spin doctors and marketeers come up with slogans, adds and pigeon holes that scare or motivate people - regardless of whether they are correct or not.

…and many people listen and some are daft enough to think canceling a train line or reducing the top rate of tax is extreme right.

Now Trump is another rather bad story!
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Trump is certainly a fascist
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
You are right in that cancelling HS2 and reducing the top rate of tax are perhaps rightwing policies but not extreme right (and yes it was me that put them). So i will concede that so you don't have to mention them in every post.

However the following policies / actions are more extreme;
  • Undermining the independent judiciary (the government have done this fairly frequently)
  • ignoring the constitution and breaking the law (peroging of parliament)
  • curtailing the right to protest
  • stuffing the media with pliant operatives (the BBC)
  • undermining and demonising apolitical organisations when they don't do what you want (National Trust, RNLI)
  • using scare tactics and stories to mobilise the public (stop the boats anybody)
  • over simplistic analysis and policies (Rwanda)

Fascist politicians do this sort of thing all of the time and it is sad to see the UK government doing these things. Like I said it depends what you define as extremism - we certainly have had a sort of nationalism in recent years.
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Have I not answered all these previously?

They are not extreme right - obviously some are further right than others though, but none are extreme right.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Fascist politicians do this sort of thing all of the time and it is sad to see the UK government doing these things. Like I said it depends what you define as extremism - we certainly have had a sort of nationalism in recent years.
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I hate to add vigour to this shameless run chase 😎, but fascism is not the sole preserve of the extreme right.

All that said, ESBN's charge sheet is pretty damaging, for the most part. What offends me even more about them is that they are crap and really incompetent fascists. They can't do anything properly.
 
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seasideone said:
Have I not answered all these previously?

They are not extreme right - obviously some are further right than others though, but none are extreme right.
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Of course those examples are examples of extremism. And I have no doubt if a left wing government adopted the same tactics then you’d condemn them as extreme.
 
seasideone said:
What are you on about? 🤣🤣🤣

Governments of all shape and size create laws and shape the judiciary.

The UK is the one of the most tolerant places on the planet - but you have to be in the UK LEGALLY!

Have you found the control c and v function?
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You've misunderstood - not for the first time. You said that 'none gets close' to the extreme right wing. Leaving aside what "none" you're referring to, my post was made to explain "extreme" in the context of Liberal democratic politics. Then to provide characteristics of extreme right wing thought and behaviours. If you are unfamiliar with discussing political concepts then that might explain your confusion and strange reply.
You have already been given examples of this behaviour in a British context by other posters so I didn't feel a need to do that. I now wonder whether it was worth me posting at all.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
You've misunderstood - not for the first time. You said that 'none gets close' to the extreme right wing. Leaving aside what "none" you're referring to, my post was made to explain "extreme" in the context of Liberal democratic politics. Then to provide characteristics of extreme right wing thought and behaviours. If you are unfamiliar with discussing political concepts then that might explain your confusion and strange reply.
You have already been given examples of this behaviour in a British context by other posters so I didn't feel a need to do that. I now wonder whether it was worth me posting at all.
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I agree with the bold bit of your post 👍🤣
 
Mexboroseasider said:
That’s like trying to argue Franco and Mussolini weren’t extremists because they weren’t as bad as Hitler (or Stalin for that matter).
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🤣🤣🤣 not at all, that would be akin to saying extremism is only the furthest of the furthest left or right.

Which is not the case, however extremism by definition has to be somewhere close to the edge of left or right to fit the extremism definition.
 
seasideone said:
🤣🤣🤣 not at all, that would be akin to saying extremism is only the furthest of the furthest left or right.

Which is not the case, however extremism by definition has to be somewhere close to the edge of left or right to fit the extremism definition.
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Well I’d say that attacking an independent judiciary, dictating what (if any) evidence a judge can hear, or what evidence a defendant facing criminal prosecution can put forward is extreme. And I’d also say that attacking an independent media, free speech and the right to protest is extreme. As is directing tens of millions of pounds into the pockets of political cronies. Those aren’t just policy differences. They are attacks on the foundations of our democracy and the principles it’s built on.

And I’m surprised anyone would disagree tbh.
 
seasideone said:
🤣🤣🤣 not at all, that would be akin to saying extremism is only the furthest of the furthest left or right.

Which is not the case, however extremism by definition has to be somewhere close to the edge of left or right to fit the extremism definition.
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I have already explained extremism for you.
 
EdgeleyTangerine said:
The end of this awful tory government can’t come soon enough.
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Does anybody actually believe that Labour will do any better as I don't, they are two peas from the same pod

They are hardly united on the Middle East issues, they wanted longer lockdowns, been inconsistent on the new houses building projects, still haven't got a strong immigration policy and recently failed to back the unions

Labour but not as we know it
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well I’d say that attacking an independent judiciary, dictating what (if any) evidence a judge can hear, or what evidence a defendant facing criminal prosecution can put forward is extreme. And I’d also say that attacking an independent media, free speech and the right to protest is extreme. As is directing tens of millions of pounds into the pockets of political cronies. Those aren’t just policy differences. They are attacks on the foundations of our democracy and the principles it’s built on.

And I’m surprised anyone would disagree tbh.
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It’s not extreme by historical definition!
 
seasideone said:
The problem here really is the quality of politicians on all sides, the ones you mentioned above were all good people whether you agreed with them or not.

This shower isn’t fit to lace their boots, so the spin doctors and marketeers come up with slogans, adds and pigeon holes that scare or motivate people - regardless of whether they are correct or not.
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I think it's much more complicated than that.

Essentially, previous governments have managed to tie the hands of their successors through various acts of parliament, such as the Human Rights Act, Equalities Act, Climate Change Act, plus various treaties and agreements with the EU, and have ingrained particular "values" within public institutions, to the extent that politicians, of whatever party or politics, are no longer running the country.

This is going to be very hard for anyone to unpick.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I think it's much more complicated than that.

Essentially, previous governments have managed to tie the hands of their successors through various acts of parliament, such as the Human Rights Act, Equalities Act, Climate Change Act, plus various treaties and agreements with the EU, and have ingrained particular "values" within public institutions, to the extent that politicians, of whatever party or politics, are no longer running the country.

This is going to be very hard for anyone to unpick.
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I agree with what you say, but also stand by this shower of politicians is simply not good enough.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Does anybody actually believe that Labour will do any better as I don't, they are two peas from the same pod

They are hardly united on the Middle East issues, they wanted longer lockdowns, been inconsistent on the new houses building projects, still haven't got a strong immigration policy and recently failed to back the unions

Labour but not as we know it
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And what are the in-situ government’s policies? Actual policy that is and not made up 3 word slogans….
 
I'm glad I didn't see this thread before now and that it's seasideone who has wasted half a day that he will never get back and not me.

Extreme policies my @rse but surely it didn't take his general forecast for folk to work out that Sunak is a wrong'un ?

The clown is good for nothing but I'll spare him his forecast, it's not as if he go around discussing how big a majority Labour will get ?

Thanks again seasideone.
 
I actually quite like the idea of a hung Parliament - it may make all sides negotiate and go with centerist policies 👍

Then again…..
 
CLASSIC . Another tory on a free transfer. Natalie Elphicke . Kent based. Walked to the Labour benches just before PMQS. Did she get a signing on fee. will she get bonus dependent on Front Bench appearances. Hung parliament . fANTASY. Rich boy Sunak can get into a phone box with the rest of these clowns. IF there are any left. 😁 😆
 
seasideone said:
I don’t understand ‘nobbled by the blob’?
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Forced out of office, one way or another, by Civil Servants and other officials, or otherwise blocked and thwarted.

In Raab's case, it was "bullying", which AFAICS involved expecting his staff to be semi-competent and do their jobs to a reasonable level.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I hate to add vigour to this shameless run chase 😎, but fascism is not the sole preserve of the extreme right.

All that said, ESBN's charge sheet is pretty damaging, for the most part. What offends me even more about them is that they are crap and really incompetent fascists. They can't do anything properly.
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You mean... like not making the trains run on time? 👉 on this day of an ASLEF strike
 
seasideone said:
No you haven’t demonstrated the above.

I agree politics are further right but using the cancelation of a train line to demonstrate extremism is somewhat pathetic.

Arguably the furthest right policy is stop the boats - but putting people in hotels with, food and healthcare is not extremist, or for that matter shipping them off elsewhere for processing while you look after them is not extremist either.

The problem here really is the quality of politicians on all sides, the ones you mentioned above were all good people whether you agreed with them or not.

This shower isn’t fit to lace their boots, so the spin doctors and marketeers come up with slogans, adds and pigeon holes that scare or motivate people - regardless of whether they are correct or not.

…and many people listen and some are daft enough to think canceling a train line or reducing the top rate of tax is extreme right.

Now Trump is another rather bad story!
Click to expand...
We have had Tories saying they want to see dinghies sinking mid channel and calling for the RNLI to be boycotted for picking up sinking migrants.
 
Wizaard said:
We have had Tories saying they want to see dinghies sinking mid channel and calling for the RNLI to be boycotted for picking up sinking migrants.
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Not quite policy though is it 👍

We have heard Labour refuse to defend the country if push comes to shove - but I am not stupid enough to think KS thinks like that!
 
SEASIDE2020 said:
I'm glad I didn't see this thread before now and that it's seasideone who has wasted half a day that he will never get back and not me.

Extreme policies my @rse but surely it didn't take his general forecast for folk to work out that Sunak is a wrong'un ?

The clown is good for nothing but I'll spare him his forecast, it's not as if he go around discussing how big a majority Labour will get ?

Thanks again seasideone.
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Yeah it's probably quicker and more satisfying to just post this...

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