Scottish independence vote

In the USA, they fly flags in their gardens & are rightly proud of the flag & their country...

The same in Scotland, Wales & certain areas of Northern Ireland

Meanwhile, try that in England............
Depends which flags you are talking about. If flags are for their own state (like Scotland, Wales etc), it would be like people in Texas flying Texas flags and people in California flying Californian flags.
 
Depends which flags you are talking about. If flags are for their own state (like Scotland, Wales etc), it would be like people in Texas flying Texas flags and people in California flying Californian flags.
I take it you've been to Texas?😀 There are more Texas state flags than stars n stripes & Texas has an independence movement (the rednecks want out!!)
 
Precisely my point!
Yes but my original question is how many independence votes should Scotland have, & if they voted out next time, should they continue having votes to see if they change their mind? or do they just continue till Wee Jimmy get the answer she wants...??

PS I want the union to remain, however if Scotland do leave, there should be a financial settlement.... & from what I've read, what Scotland currently takes in in taxes is heavily subsidised by England, (as it should be!! we are all in it together, till/if the Scots leave).

Wee Jimmy has not explained how Scotland will fund itself? & forget the Oil..... thats not enough, however there is the shortbread & Haggis.. 🤣

If they truly want to go, they do need a clear unbiased explanation of the pros & cons.... rather than just what Wee Jimmy believes (Apparently we'll never take her freedom!!) 🤣🤪
 
2 things.....
  1. Scotland wouldn't get accepted into the EU as it hasn't/doesn't hit the financial targets required to become a member.
    All those lovely grants for farming, fishing and underprivileged economics wont be happening EVER if they leave the UK.
    The EU wont want another Estonia or Romania to throw millions at....

  2. The income from oil is going to run out eventually....or if the cost per barrel drops below a certain level that will cripple the country.
    Apart from Oil...what's Scotland's natural reserve or income generator....Whisky, religious bigots, deep fried pizza.
    They cant live on being a 'nice place for a visit' when their costs are going to jump 20% - 30% to cover the increase in taxation
Honestly.....let them vote as it's been said.....but (like Brexit) give them the chance to go.
 
I'm not sure why Scaramanga and Jaffa are so against independence in Scotland. It would more or less finish Labour's chance of winning power in England, isn't that what they want?

They'll be bankrupt within a year, end up bailed out by the Chinese in return for military bases on mainland Britain.

Nice.


As someone posted above what happens with the massive debt we've racked up during this Pandemic do they walk away and leave it all to the English?

That's what some of the nats claim they can do, I can think of several ways to force them to take their share.
 
2 things.....
  1. Scotland wouldn't get accepted into the EU as it hasn't/doesn't hit the financial targets required to become a member.
    All those lovely grants for farming, fishing and underprivileged economics wont be happening EVER if they leave the UK.
    The EU wont want another Estonia or Romania to throw millions at....

  2. The income from oil is going to run out eventually....or if the cost per barrel drops below a certain level that will cripple the country.
    Apart from Oil...what's Scotland's natural reserve or income generator....Whisky, religious bigots, deep fried pizza.
    They cant live on being a 'nice place for a visit' when their costs are going to jump 20% - 30% to cover the increase in taxation
Honestly.....let them vote as it's been said.....but (like Brexit) give them the chance to go.
Point 1 correct

Point 2, O&G is already negligible at current barrel price. Don't scoff at whisky, raises nearly as much as oil. The big revenue stream for Scotland, if investment accelerates, is Green Energy. Scotland gets most of its energy that way, and has huge potential to expand with offshore wind, and, the Holy Grail of Green Energy, wave/tidal. The area between Scotland and Orkney alone could supply most of the UK's energy needs. But not yet and not without massive investment that an independent Scottish Government would only raise at a huge premium to now.
 
I think the SNP have no credible financial model for independence.

1. Sturgeon says they will keep the pound, but they will need a separate central bank to support a separate monetary system to undepin their separate fiscal decisions. The costs of borrowing will be higher than the Bank of England. They will also have much less capacity to ride out fluctuations in their economy. That economy has a limited number of sectors.
2. I note what has been said about past North Sea oil and gas revenues, but the reality is those have been markedly reducing over the last 20 years, with the costs of extraction increasing. The move away from fossil fuels will also accelerate their decline. The goose laid the golden egg a long time ago.
3. Ever since the Barnett formula was introduced in the 1970s the per capita funding from the UK Government has been much higher for Scotland than other parts of England (I did an exercise a few years ago which showed that public services in Lincolnshire would be £300m a year better off if we received the same per capita funding as Scotland). That has allowed Scotland to do things like reduce the costs of university education, free prescriptions, etc. A pity that despite that more favourable position the standards of schools and some other public services appear to have declined. I just cannot see where Scotland could maintain that level of spend and the deficits they are generating with the income sources they have got access to. And an idependent Scotland would see more attention focussed on the performance of its public services.
4. Sturgeon may well be hoping that the EU will help them if they are allowed to rejoin (and that is not likely to be for some time). The EU will not want to subside another new entrant (that is currently subsidised by the UK as above). They will insist on a fiscally sustainable economy prior to entry, which will require both reductions in spend and limited borrowing. That will mean cuts to services and tax increases. Are the Scottish public prepared fot that? Re-entry to the EU will also mean accepting the Euro, surrender of monetary policy and severe limitations on tax variances. So much for independence. And the EU fishing fleets will want 90% of Scottish waters.
5. And of course over 60% of the Scottish economy is dependent on the rest of the UK. Border controls anyone?

Doesn't seem to have a financial and economic logic to me. But then, perhaps is it more about Sturgeon being the first Queen of Scots since Mary was around?
 
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So it’s OK for the UK to vote to leave the EU and become a - not that it wasn’t already - Sovereign nation. According to many on here the evil EU Commission were intent on creating a European Super State with it’s own military.

But ohh no we can’t have Brussels dictating to our great nation.

But when the boot is on the other foot, and Scotland - overwhelmingly voting Remain - murmur about leaving the Union to make its own way in the world - they don’t vote many Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MPs into Parliament but still have to follow most of what the Government imposes on them like it or not - then the cries about breaking up the union, insults about the First Minister, and a general sneering at the Scots wanting to improve their lot start.

I hope they decide what is best for them, they will hopefully have an honest open discussion about it and the pro’s and con’s of remaining or going for it are clearly laid out for them and that they can go into the future with their eyes wide open and all the information to make an informed decision at their fingertips.
 
Point 1 correct

Point 2, O&G is already negligible at current barrel price. Don't scoff at whisky, raises nearly as much as oil. The big revenue stream for Scotland, if investment accelerates, is Green Energy. Scotland gets most of its energy that way, and has huge potential to expand with offshore wind, and, the Holy Grail of Green Energy, wave/tidal. The area between Scotland and Orkney alone could supply most of the UK's energy needs. But not yet and not without massive investment that an independent Scottish Government would only raise at a huge premium to now.
Whiskey is Scotland's' largest export....and when you leave, you can add another 20% (and maybe even more) to the cost of a bottle.
You now 'export' to England, where we will be adding a further duty and VAT to it...reducing sales...reducing taxes...leading to lower job opportunities...reduced incomes......and then Keynesian economics kicks in....
How you paying for your free school meals, free University and square sausage when the market on your doorstep is no longer there?

As for green energy......
Why would England (or for that fact any other country) pay a higher price for an energy source, when they can make it as well.
Off-shore wind farms....anyone can develop them and become 'self sufficient' rather than paying another country above market value.
We have seen what happens when we are held to ransom with Gas from Russia/Eastern Baltics & Oil from the UAE......it's simple economics.....
At present, the whole of the UK 'invests' in generating energy.....if you left the UK...we want 'OUR' UK funded wind farms back....
O maybe you can buy them off us.
Good luck trying to raise £2billion in taxes or adding debt.....As Lost says, you could get the Chinese to fund it for a few military bases....
 
Whiskey is Scotland's' largest export....and when you leave, you can add another 20% (and maybe even more) to the cost of a bottle.
You now 'export' to England, where we will be adding a further duty and VAT to it...reducing sales...reducing taxes...leading to lower job opportunities...reduced incomes......and then Keynesian economics kicks in....
How you paying for your free school meals, free University and square sausage when the market on your doorstep is no longer there?

As for green energy......
Why would England (or for that fact any other country) pay a higher price for an energy source, when they can make it as well.
Off-shore wind farms....anyone can develop them and become 'self sufficient' rather than paying another country above market value.
We have seen what happens when we are held to ransom with Gas from Russia/Eastern Baltics & Oil from the UAE......it's simple economics.....
At present, the whole of the UK 'invests' in generating energy.....if you left the UK...we want 'OUR' UK funded wind farms back....
O maybe you can buy them off us.
Good luck trying to raise £2billion in taxes or adding debt.....As Lost says, you could get the Chinese to fund it for a few military bases....
Interesting perspective, reinforcing the point I made earlier as to lack of understanding of UK/ England/Scotland ownership and liability. If the UK is to stay together, this anti Scottish rhetoric needs to be binned
 
Interesting perspective, reinforcing the point I made earlier as to lack of understanding of UK/ England/Scotland ownership and liability. If the UK is to stay together, this anti Scottish rhetoric needs to be binned
I don't (I hope) I've never been anti Scottish...I believe they deserve another referendum....
But demanding Scotland have independence is probably huge when 'Braveheart' has been on the telly...but in the cold light of day.....Scotland couldn't survive on it's own...and if you give it to Scotland....You have to give it to Northern Ireland....(Runs and hides in a box until the loud shouting stops and the religious bigots calm down)

Like the USA were a sum of our all our parts.....all good as individuals, English, Welsh, Scots.....but together...Great Britons.

Anyway....Wee Jimmy Crankie has just got an inferiority complex and wants to be the big I am at home...
And just like all short arses.....Think they know it all...but are just full of...(fill in the missing expletive)
 
I don't (I hope) I've never been anti Scottish...I believe they deserve another referendum....
But demanding Scotland have independence is probably huge when 'Braveheart' has been on the telly...but in the cold light of day.....Scotland couldn't survive on it's own...and if you give it to Scotland....You have to give it to Northern Ireland....(Runs and hides in a box until the loud shouting stops and the religious bigots calm down)

Like the USA were a sum of our all our parts.....all good as individuals, English, Welsh, Scots.....but together...Great Britons.

Anyway....Wee Jimmy Crankie has just got an inferiority complex and wants to be the big I am at home...
And just like all short arses.....Think they know it all...but are just full of...(fill in the missing expletive)
The people of Wales recognise that the country wouldn't survive on its own. And there would be a return to civil war in Northern Ireland if it were suggested. In any event, once those good people see Scotland self-destruct, they would steer well away from independence. I don't want to see the Union split, but there is something fascinating about the thought of seeing Scotland choosing to destroy itself.
 
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Interesting perspective, reinforcing the point I made earlier as to lack of understanding of UK/ England/Scotland ownership and liability. If the UK is to stay together, this anti Scottish rhetoric needs to be binned
Just 2 points for me
Once in generation should mean 25 years between referendums.
When a referendum is run it should not be a simplistic Yes/no question. A mistake was made on Brexit that the ramifications were not understood.
 
The lesson of Brexit means that all the negotiation should be done prior to any referendum so that everyone knows what they are voting for.

There's no reason to think the UK would be vindictive to Scotland but, equally, there could be no free rides and the Scots would be expected to take on their share of the post-Covid national debt as well as accept UK taking security on various assets in case the Scots subsequently defaulted (which is unthinkable for the UK but possible for a smaller Scotland).

There's also the question of defence. Currently the only deep water harbour for nuclear submarines is on the Clyde as the South Coast is too populated and I believe Barrow would have to be dredged to allow permanent access. The waters north of Scotland are strategically important and it's not credible that NATO would sit back and allow some token inshore Scottish Navy to be responsible for that area. So the reality is there would have to be UK Crown bases in Scotland similar to Cyprus irrespective of whether SNP voters want Trident or not.

As for borders and the EU... I have no doubt Brussels would welcome Scotland with open arms irrespective of Spain's objections for no other reason then to stick the blame on Brexit even though Scottish independence pre-dates the UK joining the EU. But the Scots would have a struggle to maintain their existing borders as well. It's highly likely the Orkneys and Shetlands would jump ship especially if London made them a financial offer they couldn't refuse and that would affect Scottish maritime territory and, inevitably, any income from North Sea oil.

I have no problem with the concept of Scottish independence (or Irish unification) but it has to be done rationally and, if the Nats lose the next one, that has to be the end of it for a long, long time.
 
Whiskey is Scotland's' largest export....and when you leave, you can add another 20% (and maybe even more) to the cost of a bottle.
You now 'export' to England, where we will be adding a further duty and VAT to it...reducing sales...reducing taxes...leading to lower job opportunities...reduced incomes......and then Keynesian economics kicks in....
How you paying for your free school meals, free University and square sausage when the market on your doorstep is no longer there?

As for green energy......
Why would England (or for that fact any other country) pay a higher price for an energy source, when they can make it as well.
Off-shore wind farms....anyone can develop them and become 'self sufficient' rather than paying another country above market value.
We have seen what happens when we are held to ransom with Gas from Russia/Eastern Baltics & Oil from the UAE......it's simple economics.....
At present, the whole of the UK 'invests' in generating energy.....if you left the UK...we want 'OUR' UK funded wind farms back....
O maybe you can buy them off us.
Good luck trying to raise £2billion in taxes or adding debt.....As Lost says, you could get the Chinese to fund it for a few military bases....
The lesson of Brexit means that all the negotiation should be done prior to any referendum so that everyone knows what they are voting for.

There's no reason to think the UK would be vindictive to Scotland but, equally, there could be no free rides and the Scots would be expected to take on their share of the post-Covid national debt as well as accept UK taking security on various assets in case the Scots subsequently defaulted (which is unthinkable for the UK but possible for a smaller Scotland).

There's also the question of defence. Currently the only deep water harbour for nuclear submarines is on the Clyde as the South Coast is too populated and I believe Barrow would have to be dredged to allow permanent access. The waters north of Scotland are strategically important and it's not credible that NATO would sit back and allow some token inshore Scottish Navy to be responsible for that area. So the reality is there would have to be UK Crown bases in Scotland similar to Cyprus irrespective of whether SNP voters want Trident or not.

As for borders and the EU... I have no doubt Brussels would welcome Scotland with open arms irrespective of Spain's objections for no other reason then to stick the blame on Brexit even though Scottish independence pre-dates the UK joining the EU. But the Scots would have a struggle to maintain their existing borders as well. It's highly likely the Orkneys and Shetlands would jump ship especially if London made them a financial offer they couldn't refuse and that would affect Scottish maritime territory and, inevitably, any income from North Sea oil.

I have no problem with the concept of Scottish independence (or Irish unification) but it has to be done rationally and, if the Nats lose the next one, that has to be the end of it for a long, long time.
There wouldn't be a UK if Scotland gained independence.
 
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