Marvin dallied again….

Thought he had a good game overall.
Where as look at Fleetwood’s first goal, it all started with Carey not getting a foot in with their player who swanned through midfield. Third goal was similar, no one getting a foot in before the ball was near our area. Marv wasn’t the issue last night.
 
To my mind the mids should be taking the ball off the CD's and then they decide short or a ping. Last season ME had nobody to help him out and as improved as KD is he's a bit timid when it comes to moving the ball forward, especially from deep.
 
Yeah I thought Marv did OK - my mate is a Fleetwood fan and said he saw things on Wednesday that the goalscorers have failed to do in every other game they've pulled the shirt on. Ironically he said having Junior out actually helped them.
 
fcblackpool said:
To my mind the mids should be taking the ball off the CD's and then they decide short or a ping. Last season ME had nobody to help him out and as improved as KD is he's a bit timid when it comes to moving the ball forward, especially from deep.
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The CD’s need to be comfortable and confident in the ball, regardless of how other players might interact.

Unfortunately our attempts, both last season and this, to play football instead of hoofball, have highlighted a gaping hole in ME’s game… clearly the reason why he’d struggled to make it as a pro imo.

He’s a great header of the ball, has good pace and recovers well and his tackling and timing is superb… In fact on those attributes I’d say he could possibly be upper Championship and even Premier League …

However… put him on the ball and ask him to bring it out of defence and pass it around to break the press and he looks like he’s never played a game of football in his life. I’ve never seen a player look so frikking awkward.

It’s a big problem for us with this system, because Casey isn’t even close to being defensively competent.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
The CD’s need to be comfortable and confident in the ball, regardless of how other players might interact.

Unfortunately our attempts, both last season and this, to play football instead of hoofball, have highlighted a gaping hole in ME’s game… clearly the reason why he’d struggled to make it as a pro imo.

He’s a great header of the ball, has good pace and recovers well and his tackling and timing is superb… In fact on those attributes I’d say he could possibly be upper Championship and even Premier League …

However… put him on the ball and ask him to bring it out of defence and pass it around to break the press and he looks like he’s never played a game of football in his life. I’ve never seen a player look so frikking awkward.

It’s a big problem for us with this system, because Casey isn’t even close to being defensively competent.
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No question! You're right. However at this level I think the ability to carry and pass is less important and gets more important the higher you go. We have Norburn who is capable of taking the ball off the CD's, and that's it.
 
fcblackpool said:
To my mind the mids should be taking the ball off the CD's and then they decide short or a ping. Last season ME had nobody to help him out and as improved as KD is he's a bit timid when it comes to moving the ball forward, especially from deep.
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I don't think KD is timid, just under orders to keep possession and move it around the back, he is also always receiving the ball facing his own
goal and as the last midfielder, he will be in trouble if he loses possession. In the second half against Fleetwood, he had Carey much tighter to him, and was facing forward a lot more, plus was under orders to be adventurous. The big thing, when Dembele plays is that KD has a simple short ball as an outlet in front of him, plus Dembele creates space for other players.
 
fcblackpool said:
No question! You're right. However at this level I think the ability to carry and pass is less important and gets more important the higher you go. We have Norburn who is capable of taking the ball off the CD's, and that's it.
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But if you’re relying on Norburn to do that, then you’re going to cede advantage to the opponent. They can still exploit the fact that your CD is uncomfortable in possession. All they need to do is cover off the passing option and then if your CD is unable to bring the ball out, you are forced to go long.

Even when ME is passing sideways or short, his ball control, the way he turns to ‘right himself’ to play the ball etc.. is all really awkward and sluggish. Unless he’s putting his foot through it and punting it long it’s all wrong.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
But if you’re relying on Norburn to do that, then you’re going to cede advantage to the opponent. They can still exploit the fact that your CD is uncomfortable in possession. All they need to do is cover off the passing option and then if your CD is unable to bring the ball out, you are forced to go long.

Even when ME is passing sideways or short, his ball control, the way he turns to ‘right himself’ to play the ball etc.. is all really awkward and sluggish. Unless he’s putting his foot through it and punting it long it’s all wrong.
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100%. Problem is there's only Norburn who can pick the ball up. KD can't. That makes you vulnerable especially against a bit of quality.
 
He had a decent game bar one pass to which he made a great recovery. Ffs why don’t you analyse every fukin pass from every player and start a thread on each bad pass. Some on here can’t fukin wait to slate Marv. Easily the best defender at the club if you take an odd misplaced pass away. Is it not as bad when any striker misses a chance in front of goal? Most miss one in most games.
 
I gave you a thumbs up on this post you made a while back.

cside said:
I think Marv got a raw deal in the first half. I sit behind the goal in the south: much of the time when he was on the ball there were nine static players in from of him, all marked, and not moving laterally or forward (aside: another frustration is how frequently our forward players were not looking at the ball!). The movement was non-existent. As other posters have suggested, he needs a midfield to drop to him for this to work.

Marv didn’t take the booing well, it led to several frustrated arguments with Hubby and the bench. He kept on getting put in the same position, and each time the crowd gave him less time before the moaning started. You could understand why he looked rattled. He had no other options on but to long-ball forward which is always going to be fruitless.

I think he did well defensively. If he looked ponderous on the ball, it’s because there were no obvious outlets. And that isn’t on Marv, it’s on Critch.
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It's pretty much still the same.
 
Players make mistakes.

Carey passed back to Marv. Marv dallied a bit. It happens.

Carey shouldn't pass back then... Marv shouldn't dally on the ball then...

Carey turns on the edge of the box and tries a different pass. He's overplaying and showboating on the edge of the box.

Marv just twats it first time and he's showing no composure and gifting the ball back to them.

It is what it is. Marv in particular has always been a rough diamond. Whatever the flaws, he's still a bit special. I hope very much to see him back in form. He did ok against Fleetwood imo.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
But if you’re relying on Norburn to do that, then you’re going to cede advantage to the opponent. They can still exploit the fact that your CD is uncomfortable in possession. All they need to do is cover off the passing option and then if your CD is unable to bring the ball out, you are forced to go long.

Even when ME is passing sideways or short, his ball control, the way he turns to ‘right himself’ to play the ball etc.. is all really awkward and sluggish. Unless he’s putting his foot through it and punting it long it’s all wrong.
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I do find it strange how ungainly he looks considering football is his profession & he can't show some sign of improvement in feeling comfortable with the ball at his feet. I'm not expecting him to suddenly swan forward, weaving through the opposition press but a tad more composure can't be out of the question surely.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
But if you’re relying on Norburn to do that, then you’re going to cede advantage to the opponent. They can still exploit the fact that your CD is uncomfortable in possession. All they need to do is cover off the passing option and then if your CD is unable to bring the ball out, you are forced to go long.

Even when ME is passing sideways or short, his ball control, the way he turns to ‘right himself’ to play the ball etc.. is all really awkward and sluggish. Unless he’s putting his foot through it and punting it long it’s all wrong.
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You get an idea in your head, and then you just exaggerate it a little more with each post!

And now you're on Casey's case too! Can't even remotely defend? Since when? The red card?
 
voyeur said:
You get an idea in your head, and then you just exaggerate it a little more with each post!

And now you're on Casey's case too! Can't even remotely defend? Since when? The red card?
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Yes, that’s possible … I can’t imagine, I’m on my own though. It’s quite a common trait on this forum and others.

I don’t think I’m exaggerating really when it comes to the dallying and awkwardness of Marvin on the ball recently though. It’s very noticeable and our opponents are exploiting it…

Where have I said that about Casey? I’d need to understand the context, because it doesn’t seem to match my exact thoughts on him.

I certainly think he’s weaker than Marv and more inexperienced from a defensive perspective.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Yes, that’s possible … I can’t imagine, I’m on my own though. It’s quite a common trait on this forum and others.

I don’t think I’m exaggerating really when it comes to the dallying and awkwardness of Marvin on the ball recently though. It’s very noticeable and our opponents are exploiting it…

Where have I said that about Casey? I’d need to understand the context, because it doesn’t seem to match my exact thoughts on him.

I certainly think he’s weaker than Marv and more inexperienced from a defensive perspective.
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Post in thread 'Marvin dallied again….' https://avftt.co.uk/index.php?threads/marvin-dallied-again….48034/post-1190535

"It’s a big problem for us with this system, because Casey isn’t even close to being defensively competent."

There are other people saying things like Marv is our best defender and everyone makes mistakes. You've now simplified him down to a headless chicken who can't pass at all and always puts his foot through the ball. For me he needs games and confidence, and we need to improve a setup that exposed him firstly, and then Casey. He did pretty well at Fleetwood and I think he can improve us, if we sort out the issues we've had that have made life tricky for all our defensively focused players since Lincoln. Seems like Marv copped all the blame for that. How did we suddenly go from zero goals against to being so easy to score against? And why didn't replacing Marv solve it?
 
I like Marv, but he has never played well in a 3,it just does not suit his game.
Not sure if Critch will go back to a 4 at some time.
 
voyeur said:
Post in thread 'Marvin dallied again….' https://avftt.co.uk/index.php?threads/marvin-dallied-again….48034/post-1190535

"It’s a big problem for us with this system, because Casey isn’t even close to being defensively competent."

There are other people saying things like Marv is our best defender and everyone makes mistakes. You've now simplified him down to a headless chicken who can't pass at all and always puts his foot through the ball. For me he needs games and confidence, and we need to improve a setup that exposed him firstly, and then Casey. He did pretty well at Fleetwood and I think he can improve us, if we sort out the issues we've had that have made life tricky for all our defensively focused players since Lincoln. Seems like Marv copped all the blame for that. How did we suddenly go from zero goals against to being so easy to score against? And why didn't replacing Marv solve it?
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Hmmm...

In my mind, at least, there's quite a difference between what you've quoted me as saying there and your 're-interpretation' in the previous comments (at the very least there's a difference in terms of what I intended to mean vs what you have taken me to mean). I wasn't meaning that Casey 'cannot remotely defend', but rather that there are issues with his defensive competence, which have been quite apparent (and in my opinion) cost us goals in recent games. What I have also said, is that Casey is young and that I would expect him to be able to improve with coaching and experience.

Again, I'm not sure I've described Marv as a "headless chicken" and that's not what I think of him at all. (I have previously described Dom Thompson as a headless chicken though). Headless chicken would suggest to me a player who runs around a bit wild and aimlessly and expends unnecessary energy, with limited positional sense... That's not how I see Marv at the moment.

How I have described Marv recently (and I can dig out the specific quotes if you wish) is having Upper Championship and possibly even Premier League ability across a number of defensive skills (namely Heading, Clearances, Pace & Recovery, Tackling). However, I have also said, that he is cumbersome and appears awkward in possession, can be indecisive, gets targeted by our opponents and prefers the long punt. Personally I think that's a pretty fair and balanced assessment.

If he improves with games, then I'll be ecstatic about that, but my personal opinion (as I've already said before) is that ME simply isn't cut out for a build from the back, possession style of football. To that extent, it becomes a matter of compromise and whether the upside of his overall defensive prowess is sufficient to counter balance the downside of his limitations on the ball. As I said yesterday, where previously I would have been very worried and a bit down in the mouth if we were to have sold Marv, I think I'm now at a point where I'd be OK with him being replaced with the right kind of player. (for the avoidance of doubt, I'll qualify that by saying, that doesn't mean I want him to go... That's for Critchley to decide really as he works with him day in day out, knows what he can improve etc..)

In terms of your comments about clean sheets, goals scored and Marv being replaced, I think there's a bit more to it. Firstly, Marv was still looking very awkward and having his pocket picked in our early games. Fortunately we didn't concede as a result, but we were certainly giving unnecessary opportunities away. In addition, we were also struggling to build from the back and pass the ball around with the pace and confidence necessary to suck sides in and break the deadlock. So potentially Marv's lack of ability on the ball was also limiting our ability to build an attack in the way that Critchley had envisaged.... We experience similar when Appleton came to Town.

Casey has come in and we have undoubtedly improved our competency in terms of passing, building from the back etc.. However we have also lost some defensive competency / solidity. Other factors will have also impacted, insomuch as our LWB has not been settled (perhaps the early choices were more defensively competent), we've been without Norburn (again lost some experience and defensive / structural competency) and circumstance has also seen us adopt a shit or bust approach..... Top that off with a keeper who seems to have been struggling for form and it's not so easy to put your finger on one specific reason really.
 
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Ok I read it. I think you're maybe over analysing. Marv has played little football in 2023. Prior to that he was a fans and players player of the season in a much tougher league. He isn't perfect. Nobody is. John Stones fucks up. Maguire does. Mings does. Last season Marv had a pass completion rate of 72%, better than our other defenders. He's never going to be Beckenbauer but he can complete passes when he'd not hinder too much pressure. We perhaps need to protect the defence better, appreciate how good he is at actual defending, and accept that all players make mistakes. Keepers and central defenderd have nowhere to hide.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
That's cool... I think you're over-simplifying with the Marvin = Clean Sheet assumption.
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See above, I pressed reply too soon.

Of course it's too simple to say clean sheets = all is well. I just said that dropping him didn't help us. Other players make mistakes, or go missing, or whatever.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Hmmm...

In my mind, at least, there's quite a difference between what you've quoted me as saying there and your 're-interpretation' in the previous comments (at the very least there's a difference in terms of what I intended to mean vs what you have taken me to mean). I wasn't meaning that Casey 'cannot remotely defend', but rather that there are issues with his defensive competence, which have been quite apparent (and in my opinion) cost us goals in recent games. What I have also said, is that Casey is young and that I would expect him to be able to improve with coaching and experience.

Again, I'm not sure I've described Marv as a "headless chicken" and that's not what I think of him at all. (I have previously described Dom Thompson as a headless chicken though). Headless chicken would suggest to me a player who runs around a bit wild and aimlessly and expends unnecessary energy, with limited positional sense... That's not how I see Marv at the moment.

How I have described Marv recently (and I can dig out the specific quotes if you wish) is having Upper Championship and possibly even Premier League ability across a number of defensive skills (namely Heading, Clearances, Pace & Recovery, Tackling). However, I have also said, that he is cumbersome and appears awkward in possession, can be indecisive, gets targeted by our opponents and prefers the long punt. Personally I think that's a pretty fair and balanced assessment.
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
If he improves with games, then I'll be ecstatic about that, but my personal opinion (as I've already said before) is that ME simply isn't cut out for a build from the back, possession style of football. To that extent, it becomes a matter of compromise and whether the upside of his overall defensive prowess is sufficient to counter balance the downside of his limitations on the ball. As I said yesterday, where previously I would have been very worried and a bit down in the mouth if we were to have sold Marv, I think I'm now at a point where I'd be OK with him being replaced with the right kind of player. (for the avoidance of doubt, I'll qualify that by saying, that doesn't mean I want him to go... That's for Critchley to decide really as he works with him day in day out, knows what he can improve etc..)

In terms of your comments about clean sheets, goals scored and Marv being replaced, I think there's a bit more to it. Firstly, Marv was still looking very awkward and having his pocket picked in our early games. Fortunately we didn't concede as a result, but we were certainly giving unnecessary opportunities away. In addition, we were also struggling to build from the back and pass the ball around with the pace and confidence necessary to suck sides in and break the deadlock. So potentially Marv's lack of ability on the ball was also limiting our ability to build an attack in the way that Critchley had envisaged.... We experience similar when Appleton came to Town.

Casey has come in and we have undoubtedly improved our competency in terms of passing, building from the back etc.. However we have also lost some defensive competency / solidity. Other factors will have also impacted, insomuch as our LWB has not been settled (perhaps the early choices were more defensively competent), we've been without Norburn (again lost some experience and defensive / structural competency) and circumstance has also seen us adopt a shit or bust approach..... Top that off with a keeper who seems to have been struggling for form and it's not so easy to put your finger on one specific reason really.
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contrary mary being economical with the truth. Here's what you've also said about Marv

BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Firstly, Ekpiteta has been pure Biz when played this season… So he’s been far from our best defender… He’s been our worst and cost us! Hopefully we can get him back to form, but it’s questionable whether he suits the 3.

Secondly, Casey has been largely excellent and looks a capable player to me.

Thirdly we have a squad of players and the manager will have to try them out in actual games in order to see what they are capable of… the alternative to that is to never make any progress, beyond where you are.

This is a transitional season … deal with it… If we’re going to hit form (big time) it’s likely to be in the second half of the season…. We might even need to wait until next season to truly be firing on all cylinders…

If we want to get to a point where we have a fully functioning team and squad, then we’re going to have to accept that will involve actually playing the players we bring in sometimes 😉
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voyeur said:
Ok I read it. I think you're maybe over analysing. Marv has played little football in 2023. Prior to that he was a fans and players player of the season in a much tougher league. He isn't perfect. Nobody is. John Stones fucks up. Maguire does. Mings does. Last season Marv had a pass completion rate of 72%, better than our other defenders. He's never going to be Beckenbauer but he can complete passes when he'd not hinder too much pressure. We perhaps need to protect the defence better, appreciate how good he is at actual defending, and accept that all players make mistakes. Keepers and central defenderd have nowhere to hide.
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I think we could change the system right now and see a version of Marv that is capable of winning a Player of the Season Award again. However I don't think he's ideally suited to the way we are currently trying to play. You seem to be upset with me for pointing that out, but clearly something hasn't been right as Critchley has chosen to leave him out and other fans have identified the issue... I didn't start this thread!!

I don't expect him to be perfect... I've said precisely that in at least 4 or 5 separate posts. We have two players competing for the same position who have different strengths and weaknesses. That's it! In an ideal world I'd combine the qualities of both and eliminate the flaws in both (who wouldn't?)

Ultimately it's a compromise... It always is...

He has the opportunity now to reclaim the shirt and I'm sure we'd all be delighted if he does.
 
I'm not upset don't worry! Sounds patronising that. I just think you've reached conclusions that may turn out to be false. You said you've seen the light. Situations can often be temporary, based on fitness, form, game time, and the mental stuff in particular. Too often, fans decide something is 100% true. Only to find out a bit later that it isn't. It's quite possible he'll settle down in a back three and confound the doubters. I'm not saying he will, but I wouldn't be surprised. He is perfectly capable of passing to his team mates and did 72% of the time last season, a division higher, in a team that lacked composure and confidence.
 
voyeur said:
I'm not upset don't worry! Sounds patronising that. I just think you've reached conclusions that may turn out to be false. You said you've seen the light. Situations can often be temporary, based on fitness, form, game time, and the mental stuff in particular. Too often, fans decide something is 100% true. Only to find out a bit later that it isn't. It's quite possible he'll settle down in a back three and confound the doubters. I'm not saying he will, but I wouldn't be surprised. He is perfectly capable of passing to his team mates and did 72% of the time last season, a division higher, in a team that lacked composure and confidence.
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My intention wasn’t to patronise.🤷‍♂️

You’ve suggested that “everybody else thinks that Marvin is great apart from me” or words to that effect. So I was just trying to point out that I’m obviously not on my own. This is not unique to me etc..

I could just have easily have said “You are suggesting that this is just me” as opposed to “upset with me”. I don’t analyse my words to that extent before posting…

Yep, I agree with everything you say about form etc..

I also think that Marv has looked consistently uncomfortable on the ball and opted ‘passed’ the responsibility onto others by playing the easy sideways pass etc.. last season, this season and at any point when asked to do it.


I’m not sure how much of an impact his ability on the ball has overall. It might be a complete red-herring.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
My intention wasn’t to patronise.🤷‍♂️

You’ve suggested that “everybody else thinks that Marvin is great apart from me” or words to that effect. So I was just trying to point out that I’m obviously not on my own. This is not unique to me etc..

I could just have easily have said “You are suggesting that this is just me” as opposed to “upset with me”. I don’t analyse my words to that extent before posting…

Yep, I agree with everything you say about form etc..

I also think that Marv has looked consistently uncomfortable on the ball and opted ‘passed’ the responsibility onto others by playing the easy sideways pass etc.. last season, this season and at any point when asked to do it.


I’m not sure how much of an impact his ability on the ball has overall. It might be a complete red-herring.
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I'm not sure how I've "suggested that everybody else thinks that Marvin is great apart from me?" I certainly don't think that, he's got loads of critics in this forum. I understand the criticism but I think he could prove the doubts wrong, as CJ has done to a good extent, despite his ongoing limitations, which you tend to forgive a lot more than Marv's.
 
voyeur said:
I'm not sure how I've "suggested that everybody else thinks that Marvin is great apart from me?" I certainly don't think that, he's got loads of critics in this forum. I understand the criticism but I think he could prove the doubts wrong, as CJ has done to a good extent, despite his ongoing limitations, which you tend to forgive a lot more than Marv's.
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I’ll probably change my mind in a few weeks.
 
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