Cowards

[TimperleyTangerine]

I worked in the community for 15 years, used to help with the applications, this isn't the reality I saw, this is a vague media reality, most depend on the money, take it away and they have nothing, how are you actually going to get people in to work when the Tories defunded most schemes, send them to the bloody job centre with their CV?

This is punishing the poorest people in society and giving them a slap on the wrist, tsssssk look at you struggling you loser, no more money for you leech boy, we're taking it away so you can't spend it all on 20/20 and fags which we know you do because our prejudices told us , but look, here's some non existent sound bite schemes mentioned in parliament to help you along.

A government should be looking out for people, this is the opposite, it's demonising people and it's a load of ** bollocks,. it's bullying people and it can fuck off.

Tell you what Sunak, get your wife to pay some ** tax eh, dickhead.

You do talk sh*te.

If you seriously believe people who are sick would rather stay on benefits, as opposed to receiving help to get well, then you’re defeating your own argument.

Mental illness does not just impact work opportunities / the ability to work, it affects all parts of life. Families, friendships, hobbies, all impacted severely. It leaves people feeling like they don’t belong, without hope, looking at the world around them but unable to take part.

The absence of self-worth drives people to the edge and beyond, damaging others around them. It’s a viscous circle and whether it’s government or society, we should do all we can to bring lasting change.

Bottom line, if you think the PIP gives people hope and self-worth then you lack the ability to think laterally and understand deeper issues. @Lala talks sense and understands the issues. Caring is not chucking £100 at someone and ignoring their mental torment.

Political bias has no place in helping people to overcome illness. For those people who are unable to improve, despite help, the safety net is always there, irrespective of which party is in power.

I’d suggest the cowards way is to do the easiest thing. Making real and lasting change takes courage. Does any political party get it right, no they don’t, but you are so lost in hatred I don’t think you’ll ever get it.

 

[Goldfinger]

Lower mobility can be awarded for physical mobility only, and this award applies to indoors and outdoors. It’s simply based on how far you can physically walk.

Sorry you're wrong Lala. Higher rate is for physical inability to walk having regard to distance, time manner and speed e.g.Stroke victims, someone wheelchair bound
Lower rate is for those needing guidance and or supervision outdoors.e.g.Downs syndrome or a blind person.
The test for LR is whether one can use an unfamiliar route without guidance and or supervision.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

You do talk sh*te.

If you seriously believe people who are sick would rather stay on benefits, as opposed to receiving help to get well, then you’re defeating your own argument.

Mental illness does not just impact work opportunities / the ability to work, it affects all parts of life. Families, friendships, hobbies, all impacted severely. It leaves people feeling like they don’t belong, without hope, looking at the world around them but unable to take part.

The absence of self-worth drives people to the edge and beyond, damaging others around them. It’s a viscous circle and whether it’s government or society, we should do all we can to bring lasting change.

Bottom line, if you think the PIP gives people hope and self-worth then you lack the ability to think laterally and understand deeper issues. @Lala talks sense and understands the issues. Caring is not chunking £100 at someone and ignoring their mental torment.

Political bias has no place in helping people to overcome illness. For those people who are unable to improve, despite help, the safety net is always there, irrespective of which party is in power.

I’d suggest the cowards way is to do the easiest thing. Making real and lasting change takes courage. Does any political party get it right, no they don’t, but you are so lost in hatred I don’t think you’ll ever get it.

I might talk shite but it's shite backed up by real world experience, the back to work schemes won't be there, the help to get better won't be there, it won't be funded under this government, that's my point.

They'll take the money away and leave nothing as a either a long term plan or a short term safety net, the money WILL NOT be put back in to the care system.

It's the coward's way, it happens time and time again, last time I did any work on the subject was during the first lockdown and funding had decreased by half a billion in ten years, no idea what it is now but I've half an idea...

Maybe I wasn't clear above, I must explain myself in simpler terms in future.

 

[Lala]

Sorry you're wrong Lala. Higher rate is for physical inability to walk having regard to distance, time manner and speed e.g.Stroke victims, someone wheelchair bound
Lower rate is for those needing guidance and or supervision outdoors.e.g.Downs syndrome or a blind person.
The test for LR is whether one can use an unfamiliar route without guidance and or supervision.

Nope. If you can only walk between 20 and 50 metres, then regardless of any other restrictions you are awarded lower rate mobility. If you can only walk less than 20 metres you are awarded higher rate mobility. This is the moving around only activity.
It’s a separate activity for guidance and supervision outdoors, albeit still part of the mobility component. You can get points for either, just for one, or both. The points determine your award. This is PIP.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

I saw a speech by wishy washy the other day saying that those with slight disability or illness could work, and companies can enable workers with special needs, changing how they work, or flexible hours, or home working the latter two is issues that Tories have come out against in a fairly big way. Large companies don't want to allow employees flexibility, you do as you're told, you work how we tell you, so getting people back into work would require government assistance for those big companies to adapt for individual cases, which most Tories wouldnt have a problem with leading to those large corporations manipulating the system to a higher degree than currently could exist.

I would hazard the guess that the vast majority of people who have these so called low level disabilities are already in low paid work. The stresses of modern living where there is no job security, where wages anyway don't cover the cost of living, those in rented accomodation have no security of tenure (another debate of utter stupidity i heard today regarding clause 21) and if you have a mortgage there is the constant stress of meeting those payments and fear of losing your home.

This "low level" stress which starts in school is now an ever present, and it will only get worse. But it's not really low level for a majority of the population and I think it's a deliberate policy, with a largely stressed population people generally become more focused on individual security, you break social ties and break community, everything the Tories have wanted since thatcher.

 

[Goldfinger]

Nope. If you can walk between 50 and 200 metres, then regardless of any other restrictions you are awarded lower rate mobility. If you can walk less than 20 metres you are awarded higher rate mobility. This is the moving around only activity.
It’s a separate activity for guidance and supervision outdoors, albeit still part of the mobility component. You can get points for either, just for one, or both. The points determine your award. This is PIP.

In that case the criteria have changed since my days sitting on appeal tribunals ( 2021)

 

[Lala]

In that case the criteria have changed since my days sitting on appeal tribunals ( 2021)

No, it hasn’t. That’s been the criteria since PIP was implemented, circa approx 2015. Check out the online guidance.
It’s a concern that a tribunal panel wasn’t aware of this maybe that’s why there are so many inconsistencies in outcomes from DWP to Tribunal.

 

[TimperleyTangerine]

I might talk shite but it's shite backed up by real world experience, the back to work schemes won't be there, the help to get better won't be there, it won't be funded under this government, that's my point.

They'll take the money away and leave nothing as a either a long term plan or a short term safety net, the money WILL NOT be put back in to the care system.

It's the coward's way, it happens time and time again, last time I did any work on the subject was during the first lockdown and funding had decreased by half a billion in ten years, no idea what it is now but I've half an idea...

Maybe I wasn't clear above, I must explain myself in simpler terms in future.

If your message wasn’t filled with political bias and expletives it might have helped. If you think Labour will stand by and do nothing, then you are misguided.

What you haven’t factored is that the more people claiming benefit, the more the pot of money is diluted. You can’t just keep adding money to keep pace with claimant numbers.

 

[Lala]

As an aside, the people I know who took their own lives due to mental illness, and unfortunately there have been too many, didn’t know or care what was in their wallets that day. All they were screaming out for was NHS crisis support and help to get better.

 

[B_Side_The_C_Side]

Were all correct....were all just talking about different aspects of the same things....and it's confusing

It's 100% not a political thing.....These organisations can see whats happening and it's DWP/NHS who are making this decision

It's going to be low level PiP recipients that will need to engage through either the JCP (Job Centre) or the NHS (Talking Therapies etc.)
They will be weaned off PiP because they (may) see it as a bonus and is stopping them working.

Those with Mental Health...Major, minor, big, little, hard, soft...whatever you want to call it, will get the best help through CMHT and receive PiP at all levels because it makes sense and they need every bit of help the NHS can provide....Pray, you never have to experience this illness in your family

And NO....low level PiP doesn't mean lowly paid workers....it covers a multitude of claimants and I wont bother with the rest of the bollocks mentioned

 

[TimperleyTangerine]

As an aside, the people I know who took their own lives due to mental illness, and unfortunately there have been too many, didn’t know or care what was in their wallets that day. All they were screaming out for was NHS crisis support and help to get better.

That sums it up perfectly.

 

[Goldfinger]

No, it hasn’t. That’s been the criteria since PIP was implemented, circa approx 2015. Check out the online guidance.
It’s a concern that a tribunal panel wasn’t aware of this maybe that’s why there are so many inconsistencies in outcomes from DWP to Tribunal.

Mob max available 12 points.
2 distinctly different elements:Planning and following journeys and moving around.
Unable to plan a route from A to B max score 8.
A tribunal had someone with a legal background, someone with a medical background and a third member familiar with the claimants disability.I was the latter.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

If your message wasn’t filled with political bias and expletives it might have helped.

Blimey, sorry Mary ** Whitehouse.

Do you wonder why it's so full of political bias, have three ** guesses.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

As an aside, the people I know who took their own lives due to mental illness, and unfortunately there have been too many, didn’t know or care what was in their wallets that day. All they were screaming out for was NHS crisis support and help to get better.

But this effects so more many people than just mental health sufferers.

 

[seasideone]

Estimates from HMRC for tax avoidance are pretty eye watering, never mind other informed sources. Your response is what they want us to think, if you look at the wealth that has moved into the funds of billionnaires since Covid in just our own country, there is plenty of money, it is just being hoovered up and taken out into tax havens.

As a general principle, I have no problem with ensuring that benefits are given to the people mneeding them, not the tiny minority playing the system, but this constant focus on the poorest is immoral. Who has had a tax cut this Parliament, oh, yes, those poor underpaid bankers, cost £5 Billion. That covers one heck of a lot of PIP.

Some figures for you….

Benefits: Who gets them and how much do they cost?

The chancellor will confirm how much benefits will go up in the Autumn Statement.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Lala]

Mob max available 12 points.
2 distinctly different elements:Planning and following journeys and moving around.
Unable to plan a route from A to B max score 8

Activity 11 and 12 make up the mobility component of PIP. The component is made up of the 2 activities, yes, each is a different criteria activity but combined, they both make up the mobility component.

Activity 12 - physical alone - less than 20 metres gives you higher rate mob. 20 to 50 on its own gives you lower rate ( now known as standard rate). Between 50 and 200 gives you no award, but 4 points which can then be added to any points gained at activity 11.
Activity 11 is for planning and following a journey for a sensory, mental health, cognitive aspect alone. . You can get 8 points or 10 points alone for this to get standard, or 12 points to get enhanced. You could also get 4 points and still get standard mobility if you also have a minimum of 4 points for activity 12. They are always added together to form the mobility award.

You can actually score 24 points for mobility component in total. But once you’re 12 or above you are on the enhanced rate.

 

[TimperleyTangerine]

Blimey, sorry Mary ** Whitehouse.

I’m not fussed by it, just pointing out that it clouds your point of view.

 

[Lala]

But this effects so more many people than just mental health sufferers.

It’s mainly mild mental health conditions that they are targeting.
The upside, as yet unmentioned on here, is that some people who currently have regular stressful reviews wont be having them again if there is little chance of improvement in their health.
It’s about getting it right as much as possible for each individual need, as one size clearly does not fit all.

 

[Goldfinger]

Activity 11 and 12 make up the mobility component of PIP.

Activity 12 - physical alone - less than 20 metres gives you higher rate mob. 20 to 50 on its own gives you lower rate ( now known as standard rate). Between 50 and 200 gives you no award, but 4 points which can then be added to any points gained at activity 11.
Activity 11 is for planning and following a journey for a sensory, mental health, cognitive aspect alone. . You can get 8 points or 10 points alone for this to get standard, or 12 points to get enhanced. You could also get 4 points and still get standard mobility if you also have a minimum of 4 points for activity 12. They are always added together to form the mobility award.

You can actually score 24 points for mobility component in total. But once you’re 12 or above you are on the enhanced rate.

Absolutely correct.I was only highlighting the fact that if you have no difficulty walking but need help or support to plan or follow a route you can get lower ( standard as it's now called) rate.

 

[Lala]

Absolutely correct.I was only highlighting the fact that if you have no difficulty walking but need help or support to plan or follow a route you can get lower ( standard as it's now called) rate.

Yes, and you can also get higher rate without any physical restriction too if you bag 12 points at activity 11

Together we made it

 

[Goldfinger]

The bottom line is the system (

Yes, and you can also get higher rate without any physical restriction too if you bag 12 points at activity 11

Together we made it

The bottom line is the system is flawed.PIP was introduced to replace DLA, which, owing to gross miscalculation of the numbers of claimants when it came in ( to combine Attendance and Mobility Allowances) was a free for all. Decision makers were told to determine entitlement without seeking evidence from medical sources, and surprise surprise the customer wasn't always telling the truth.
Eyebrows were raised when it was discovered that the number of people with motabilty cars had risen over 400% since the switch, but there had only been one change in the legislation, the introduction of the SMI criterion ( severely mentally impaired) which was an automatic high rate award, but there were only around 1000 in the country.
Once an award is made you need grounds to look at it meaning life awards were largely untouchable so along came PIP to try and remove the " bad back and can on!y walk 10 yards " brigade.

 

[Lala]

The bottom line is the system (

The bottom line is the system is flawed.PIP was introduced to replace DLA, which, owing to gross miscalculation of the numbers of claimants when it came in ( to combine Attendance and Mobility Allowances) was a free for all. Decision makers were told to determine entitlement without seeking evidence from medical sources, and surprise surprise the customer wasn't always telling the truth.
Eyebrows were raised when it was discovered that the number of people with motabilty cars had risen over 400% since the switch, but there had only been one change in the legislation, the introduction of the SMI criterion ( severely mentally impaired) which was an automatic high rate award, but there were only around 1000 in the country.
Once an award is made you need grounds to look at it meaning life awards were largely untouchable so along came PIP to try and remove the " bad back and can on!y walk 10 yards " brigade.

For many reasons an overhaul of our current welfare system is needed, due, and in my opinion should be welcomed.

 

[Goldfinger]

For many reasons an overhaul of our current welfare system is needed, due, and in my opinion should be welcomed.

I concur Lala!

 

[Wizaard]

I still can’t believe that some people
think that giving someone 100+ quid a week cures or manages depression, or drug addiction, as examples.

For the latter it has the opposite effect and enables further dependency. Yet, people are paid disability benefits for such addictions. You may aswell sign their death warrant.

Work in itself is exceptionally good for your mental health. It’s not a dirty word, and people shouldn’t be afraid to advocate it.

As for anti-depressants, some are very effective and make a massive difference to some people’s quality of life.

The welfare state, when it comes to health, is a complex business, to make the naive assumption that throwing money at the individual is the kindest and only option is bizarre. Yet anything else is considered heartless

If they're in receipt of PIP then medical professionals have deemed them unfit for work.

I don't disagree that work can give a structure and help mental health, but surely they wouldn't be getting PIP, but ESA as part of support back into work?

 

[Lala]

If they're in receipt of PIP then medical professionals have deemed them unfit for work.

I don't disagree that work can give a structure and help mental health, but surely they wouldn't be getting PIP, but ESA as part of support back into work?

That’s not true Wiz. You can work and claim PIP, many do.

You can get PIP in work, out of work, with UC or ESA etc. You can also get PIP for your own disabilities even if you are claiming Carer’s Allowance for being the main Carer for someone else !

 

[Macseasider]

Tories, always punching downwards, fuckers with their fuckwit scared little supporters.

PIP: Disabled people face end to monthly benefits cash

Disability payments that help with extra living costs could be scrapped in favour of more tailored support as the government looks at overhauling the benefits system Proposals include disabilities.

www.bbc.co.uk

All just political posturing. Smashing the poor in the face has always been a vote winner for them in the past.

Thankfully they'll be long forgotten before any of this could happen.

Expect more of this before the general election.

And expect them to fcuk things for the new incoming government too. That's how spiteful and petulant they are.

 

[Newholland]

It's not angst, it's anger directed at this government and it's excusers.

We’ll all get the chance at the ballot box in due course ... life is too short to get all frothed up about politics... don’t matter who is in No 10 ... the media only tend to highlight the crap ... rarely the good... my wife and I don’t watch any news or take any newspaper... makes for a better life...try and have a good day mate

 

[Lala]

And expect them to fcuk things for the new incoming government too. That's how spiteful and petulant they are.

What, like leaving a note saying ‘there’s no money left’

I don’t have the requisite faith in any party to put my cross in a box at the moment. But at least we are starting to see and hear what may lie ahead. And welfare reform seems on the cards for both.

 

[Macseasider]

There are many elements of PIP that make no sense at all. For instance awarding points because people require aids to cook, shower / bathe, toilet or dress. Many of the people already have these aids and are most often free from Occupational Health teams. Yet because the law states people need the aids they are awarded points, and in many cases qualifies them for the benefit which they receive for years on a weekly basis for things they already have. The idea to actually pay for things like home adjustments rather than to pay benefit would actually be the right one in many cases.

 

[Macseasider]

If they're in receipt of PIP then medical professionals have deemed them unfit for work.

I don't disagree that work can give a structure and help mental health, but surely they wouldn't be getting PIP, but ESA as part of support back into work?

UC deals with work. PIP simply considers if people can function in their daily living. Vast numbers of PIP claimants work and are happy working. They just need the benefit to facilitate daily living tasks / transport.

 

[Eternaloptimist]

Certainly need to do something but I’m not sure what the answer is to 3 and a half million people unable to work cos of mental health problems???

Mosser, I do wonder how many of those 3.5 million are genuine cases.

 

[Archibald Knox]

It’s an easy card to play these days the olde ‘mental health card’ and quite rightly the Government should sort the lead swingers from the genuine claimants.

Up to a point, I sense your frustration. It’s all about the money isn’t it? Unfortunately, the Govt or the companies they employ are not medically qualified to carry out those assessments.

The last scandal was with G4S or Crapita or some such assessing disability benefits claimants. If I recall correctly some were invited to interviews on the 1st or 2nd floor of buildings that had no lifts and given no contact details other than the address. And some of the claimants were in wheelchairs. So they were rejected for non-attendance.

As goes for mental health issues, are the Govt going to employ hundreds of qualified psychiatrists or use the box-ticking morons from Crapita again?

If the latter then we can expect much cruelty and hardship again. If the former, then these psychiatrists will be assigned from the NHS, so preventing them doing their work there which is much more important.

When we have both known and undiagnosed schizophrenics wandering the streets and randomly stabbing people to death it tells us our NHS mental health services are already under-resourced.

Thankfully this shower of nasty incompetents pretending to be a Govt should be gone before they can do too much more harm. All these recent pronouncements are just Sunak’s angry knee-jerk responses to being called a fool with the lowest rating as PM in living history.

 

[Wizaard]

Up to a point, I sense your frustration. It’s all about the money isn’t it? Unfortunately, the Govt or the companies they employ are not medically qualified to carry out those assessments.

The last scandal was with G4S or Crapita or some such assessing disability benefits claimants. If I recall correctly some were invited to interviews on the 1st or 2nd floor of buildings that had no lifts and given no contact details other than the address. And some of the claimants were in wheelchairs. So they were rejected for non-attendance.

As goes for mental health issues, are the Govt going to employ hundreds of qualified psychiatrists or use the box-ticking morons from Crapita again?

If the latter then we can expect much cruelty and hardship again. If the former, then these psychiatrists will be assigned from the NHS, so preventing them doing their work there which is much more important.

When we have both known and undiagnosed schizophrenics wandering the streets and randomly stabbing people to death it tells us our NHS mental health services are already under-resourced.

Thankfully this shower of nasty incompetents pretending to be a Govt should be gone before they can do too much more harm. All these recent pronouncements are just Sunak’s angry knee-jerk responses to being called a fool with the lowest rating as PM in living history.

Contracts to be 'won' by favoured companies, coincidentally those who have donated to funds.