Working class, middle class or other?

Bennys_was_a_mob

Bennys_was_a_mob

Well-known member
Having this debate with my other half, whether we are thought of as working class or middle class.
I'm saying working class, being a factory worker (shop floor) for over 40 years, knowing my place 😉 and quite happy with it.
My other half is trying to say she is now middle class as she is a new high earner and as we are a couple her level drags me up a peg.

I think she joking 🤔 but question is, what defines levels and is it too pc nowadays to label people like this?
 
Bennys_was_a_mob said:
Having this debate with my other half, whether we are thought of as working class or middle class.
I'm saying working class, being a factory worker (shop floor) for over 40 years, knowing my place 😉 and quite happy with it.
My other half is trying to say she is now middle class as she is a new high earner and as we are a couple her level drags me up a peg.

I think she joking 🤔 but question is, what defines levels and is it too pc nowadays to label people like this?
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I’am sure Bazbob will be along soon pointing you in the right direction.
 
The class system holds this country back IMO.
For instance, the reason why recently we have had had a series of incompetent PMs is because of the class system.
If we are serious about being a meritocratic society then we have a lot of work to do. In theory, this would be a better way of doing things because generally the most able people would get the most important jobs. The biggest step towards making us more meritocratic would be to make private education almost impossible for most through taxation (or actually make it against the law somehow). IMO private education allows parents to buy advantage for their children that they wouldn't necessarily have if they got the same education as other poorer children.
Of course, no political party is brave enough to try this.
 
The trouble is some people with a nice house mortgaged to the hilt and a German car on finance think they're middle class even though they're a couple of failed pay days away from bankruptcy, so vote for who they perceive to be better for them and not others.

It's a trap that was set decades ago, shiny things, buy the shiny things and vote for us for more shiny things, you ARE important, honest.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
The class system holds this country back IMO.
For instance, the reason why recently we have had had a series of incompetent PMs is because of the class system.
If we are serious about being a meritocratic society then we have a lot of work to do. In theory, this would be a better way of doing things because generally the most able people would get the most important jobs. The biggest step towards making us more meritocratic would be to make private education almost impossible for most through taxation (or actually make it against the law somehow). IMO private education allows parents to buy advantage for their children that they wouldn't necessarily have if they got the same education as other poorer children.
Of course, no political party is brave enough to try this.
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Do other countries not have a class system? And you're post seems to suggest you are all in favour of holding people back..
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
The trouble is some people with a nice house mortgaged to the hilt and a German car on finance think they're middle class even though they're a couple of failed pay days away from bankruptcy, so vote for who they perceive to be better for them and not others.

It's a trap that was set decades ago, shiny things, buy the shiny things and vote for us for more shiny things, you ARE important, honest.
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Does anyone actually buy cars for cash anymore?

I mean why would you?
 
I'm middle class but in denial of it. As are a lot of people.

Class is complex innit in the sense of its become a sort of cultural thing. Marx is very simple - it's to do with your economic power basically - but now we see it more as an expression of values.

It's also all mixed up. We see 'working class' as a sort of short hand for a lack of education and such but actually, working class history is full of self improvement and education and intellectualism.

So it's actually bollocks when people think reading a book, writing a poem or appreciating an artist is middle class. It's just that the power to define and celebrate the so called 'best' of those things resides with the middle class.

I think my values are quite old fashioned working class. I hate debt, I don't like wasting money, I don't like ostentatious shows of wealth, I can't imagine buying a house with more bedrooms than people who live it for example and I don't like individualism much. I consider small pleasures like a cup of tea in the yard in the sun to be one of life's great luxuries. I think what Lytham says is spot on. I don't want to fall for that and I think it's my dear old grandad that drummed into me the idea of 'spend what you have, but don't sell yourself to others'

My mate takes the piss out of me something chronic but it's just engrained in me. It's not superior, it's just my default setting.

My attitudes are massively shaped by my grandparents who were proper old school WC I think.

I am, however, unlike them, university educated and have done managery things so they would have considered me middle class without a question and I think I am. Even though I often write 'owt' and can speak fluent Wiganese and live in a terraced house and that.

I also agree that the class system is reinforced by education and until it isn't, it's very difficult to see it decaying.
 
Bennys_was_a_mob said:
Having this debate with my other half, whether we are thought of as working class or middle class.
I'm saying working class, being a factory worker (shop floor) for over 40 years, knowing my place 😉 and quite happy with it.
My other half is trying to say she is now middle class as she is a new high earner and as we are a couple her level drags me up a peg.

I think she joking 🤔 but question is, what defines levels and is it too pc nowadays to label people like this?
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the one interesting point that im curious about there, is what do you mean about "knowing your place".
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
The class system holds this country back IMO.
For instance, the reason why recently we have had had a series of incompetent PMs is because of the class system.
If we are serious about being a meritocratic society then we have a lot of work to do. In theory, this would be a better way of doing things because generally the most able people would get the most important jobs. The biggest step towards making us more meritocratic would be to make private education almost impossible for most through taxation (or actually make it against the law somehow). IMO private education allows parents to buy advantage for their children that they wouldn't necessarily have if they got the same education as other poorer children.
Of course, no political party is brave enough to try this.
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I noticed that lovely Peer who told the cancer sufferer on the Telly yesterday that she was less valuable, went to Eton.

I think if we are ever serious about becoming a meritocracy, we need to make the public schools into state comprehensives, and start quotas for Oxbridge. We all know it will never happen, because "they" control what legislation comes to Parliament. Even it happened, the networks of old money would still support their friend's offspring. I actually think we have regressed as a society in the last 15 years.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
I noticed that lovely Peer who told the cancer sufferer on the Telly yesterday that she was less valuable, went to Eton.

I think if we are ever serious about becoming a meritocracy, we need to make the public schools into state comprehensives, and start quotas for Oxbridge. We all know it will never happen, because "they" control what legislation comes to Parliament. Even it happened, the networks of old money would still support their friend's offspring. I actually think we have regressed as a society in the last 15 years.
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Completely agree and the stats back it up
And there is less opportunity for social mobility now than there was when I was young.
I lived in Scotland for a bit moss and studied there, I got the impression that things are more meritocratic in Scotland. Was I mistaken?
 
td53 said:
I'm middle class but in denial of it. As are a lot of people.

Class is complex innit in the sense of its become a sort of cultural thing. Marx is very simple - it's to do with your economic power basically - but now we see it more as an expression of values.

It's also all mixed up. We see 'working class' as a sort of short hand for a lack of education and such but actually, working class history is full of self improvement and education and intellectualism.

So it's actually bollocks when people think reading a book, writing a poem or appreciating an artist is middle class. It's just that the power to define and celebrate the so called 'best' of those things resides with the middle class.

I think my values are quite old fashioned working class. I hate debt, I don't like wasting money, I don't like ostentatious shows of wealth, I can't imagine buying a house with more bedrooms than people who live it for example and I don't like individualism much. I consider small pleasures like a cup of tea in the yard in the sun to be one of life's great luxuries. I think what Lytham says is spot on. I don't want to fall for that and I think it's my dear old grandad that drummed into me the idea of 'spend what you have, but don't sell yourself to others'

My mate takes the piss out of me something chronic but it's just engrained in me. It's not superior, it's just my default setting.

My attitudes are massively shaped by my grandparents who were proper old school WC I think.

I am, however, unlike them, university educated and have done managery things so they would have considered me middle class without a question and I think I am. Even though I often write 'owt' and can speak fluent Wiganese and live in a terraced house and that.

I also agree that the class system is reinforced by education and until it isn't, it's very difficult to see it decaying.
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I haven't lived in blackpool for thirty five years, i havent lived in the north for more than thirty, and ive lived outside of the UK for 22 of the rest of that time. On a journey back to the UK about 15 years ago, I met up with some old school friends one of whom stated categorically that "i had gone all posh". In several of the countries ive lived and worked im just assumed to be english upper class because everyone english who isnt a football hooligan is slightly upper class. I used to work at a london based creative agency, and a lot of the people there were of a type. Without, being too labelly sloaney, notting hill, chelsea set. One of the people there who became quite a close friend, once described me jokingly as an educated savage, or words to that effect, i still had the remnants of a northern accent then, in comparison to everyone esle in the office.

My accent has obviously changed, as have many of my basic beliefs but "going all posh" really stunned me at the time. I got the impression that this old friend of mine thought i had betrayed my roots. the foreigners all think im english upper class, and the sloaney londoners definitley thought i was working class.

class is such a weird thing today. The thing i find most disturbing is the education system is re-inforcing it more than it was 20 or thirty years ago, when it was definitely class driven and its a barrier to success, individually and collectively.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Completely agree and the stats back it up
And there is less opportunity for social mobility now than there was when I was young.
I lived in Scotland for a bit moss and studied there, I got the impression that things are more meritocratic in Scotland. Was I mistaken?
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My experience only, but a bit better in the cities, but amongst the rural grouse murdering set, still very class based. My personal beef is with armed gamekeepers telling you to leave their land when Scotland's Right to Roam legislation gives everyone access pretty much everywhere.

The good thing in the Highlands is a history of rebellion!!
 
Anyone who sells their labour for money is working class. Middle class only exsists in the mind of the "Conservative voting considererably richer than you" gang. Upper class is, statistically very small group these days and consists mainly of the peerage, gentry and hereditary landowners.
 
I think a lot of BnB owners in Blackpool regard themselves as middle class. I am working class. Slave to the state - a pleb.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
I haven't lived in blackpool for thirty five years, i havent lived in the north for more than thirty, and ive lived outside of the UK for 22 of the rest of that time. On a journey back to the UK about 15 years ago, I met up with some old school friends one of whom stated categorically that "i had gone all posh". In several of the countries ive lived and worked im just assumed to be english upper class because everyone english who isnt a football hooligan is slightly upper class. I used to work at a london based creative agency, and a lot of the people there were of a type. Without, being too labelly sloaney, notting hill, chelsea set. One of the people there who became quite a close friend, once described me jokingly as an educated savage, or words to that effect, i still had the remnants of a northern accent then, in comparison to everyone esle in the office.

My accent has obviously changed, as have many of my basic beliefs but "going all posh" really stunned me at the time. I got the impression that this old friend of mine thought i had betrayed my roots. the foreigners all think im english upper class, and the sloaney londoners definitley thought i was working class.

class is such a weird thing today. The thing i find most disturbing is the education system is re-inforcing it more than it was 20 or thirty years ago, when it was definitely class driven and its a barrier to success, individually and collectively.
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When I lived in Wigan I was 'a bit posh' cos my parents are from Blackpool and didn't speak with a thick Wigan accent so I don't so much. I can put it on and off, so if I had it off I sounded 'posh' to proper wiganers.

When I went to university I was an object of bizarre curiosity because people said my accent (the one that was posh by Wigan standards cos it was more just a generally Lancashire one) was apparently so thick as to be virtually incomprehensible by some.

That summer where I left Wigan and went to university was really, really weird. It was like an epiphany where I learned that 'posh' didn't actually mean living in a 1960s semi with a garden or if both yer mum and dad had a second hand car instead of sharing onr. That was Wigan posh which bore no resemblance to actual posh.

It meant skiing holidays and private education and houses with grounds and nannys and father's with connections to people 'in the industry' and all that. I had literally never met these people before. The mad part was, I was at a shit uni in yorkshire so fuck knows what Oxbridge is like!
 
Working class and proud 👍

Class itself is different and isn’t measured by income or financial worth or even job. It’s more about your behaviours and character.
 
td53 said:
When I lived in Wigan I was 'a bit posh' cos my parents are from Blackpool and didn't speak with a thick Wigan accent so I don't so much. I can put it on and off, so if I had it off I sounded 'posh' to proper wiganers.

When I went to university I was an object of bizarre curiosity because people said my accent (the one that was posh by Wigan standards cos it was more just a generally Lancashire one) was apparently so thick as to be virtually incomprehensible by some.

That summer where I left Wigan and went to university was really, really weird. It was like an epiphany where I learned that 'posh' didn't actually mean living in a 1960s semi with a garden or if both yer mum and dad had a second hand car instead of sharing onr. That was Wigan posh which bore no resemblance to actual posh.

It meant skiing holidays and private education and houses with grounds and nannys and father's with connections to people 'in the industry' and all that. I had literally never met these people before. The mad part was, I was at a shit uni in yorkshire so fuck knows what Oxbridge is like!
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absolutely get that.
 
It is a hard thing to debate because so many people confuse class with materialism, and use materialistic criteria to categorise people.

As td53 says, there is nothing inherently wrong with being working class, and certainly not with being working class and aspiring to self-improvement. Some people sneer at it, but it is the bedrock of economic wealth generation that people try to develop themselves in terms of skills, experience and, yes, wealth.

Social class distinctions are very often rooted in snobbery, and this country does still pay too much deference to a self-proclaimed elite whose record (in Government and elsewhere) doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Meritocracy has to be the aim, for me, but getting there is very hard.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
absolutely get that.
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The other thing was. And in a way it was sad, was I was buzzing to be there cos my mum and dad or grandparents didn't go to university and they (the 'posh') were all ashamed they had failed and *only* gone to that one. Again, that's an eye opener as to how class based expectations drive people without them even knowing it.
 
i make a quite long argument (elsewhere as part of an argument for something else) that the UK class system has changed quite radically since the eighties, property ownership, professionalisation of even mundane and often low skill clerical jobs, the esturising of many of the home county accents in line with what was northern creative endeavours in art, music, journalism, film etc. being working class was a bit cool, in certain parts. It's changing again though to something more internationally recognised which is definitely about ownership. if you own things, enough so that you are not immediately using them you have an elevated social position, and an expectation of preferential treatment, a bit like having a title, which in the UK anyway i think is the ultimate signal of class distinction.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
I haven't lived in blackpool for thirty five years, i havent lived in the north for more than thirty, and ive lived outside of the UK for 22 of the rest of that time. On a journey back to the UK about 15 years ago, I met up with some old school friends one of whom stated categorically that "i had gone all posh". In several of the countries ive lived and worked im just assumed to be english upper class because everyone english who isnt a football hooligan is slightly upper class. I used to work at a london based creative agency, and a lot of the people there were of a type. Without, being too labelly sloaney, notting hill, chelsea set. One of the people there who became quite a close friend, once described me jokingly as an educated savage, or words to that effect, i still had the remnants of a northern accent then, in comparison to everyone esle in the office.

My accent has obviously changed, as have many of my basic beliefs but "going all posh" really stunned me at the time. I got the impression that this old friend of mine thought i had betrayed my roots. the foreigners all think im english upper class, and the sloaney londoners definitley thought i was working class.

class is such a weird thing today. The thing i find most disturbing is the education system is re-inforcing it more than it was 20 or thirty years ago, when it was definitely class driven and its a barrier to success, individually and collectively.
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Why did you lose your accent?
 
I'm with you on the attitude to money td, I really hate waste and actually enjoy getting extra life out of second hand stuff, I suppose a habit I picked up as a child.
These days, I actually get far more pleasure from getting a second hand bargain cheap than buying new, also is better for the environment. The idea that I somehow beat the system definitely adds value to the objects in my mind. Examples, Hugo Boss leather jacket from eBay £35, great quality kitchen, granite and quality appliances again from eBay for £1500, Levi 501's for £10 from eBay. There is a great charity warehouse near where I live where everything is £3 - that is where most of my wardrobe comes from. I could actually manage to buy these things new if I wanted but it is not the same.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Yep, because I want to own it, not rent it off a finance company. Oldskoolinnit.
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Lala said:
I’m with Lytham. Always owned my own car, even if it was worth less that the coat on my back at times! And that would be a cheap coat mind.
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In fairness, I own mine and my wife’s cars, but only because I’ve essentially made the choice to keep them for a prolonged period.

Car Finance is a very convenient way to deal with something that is an expenditure rather than an asset. If you change your car every three to four years, then owning cars is an absolute pain in the arse.

Half the time you end up paying less for a more or less new car than people do for a banger.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Does anyone actually buy cars for cash anymore?

I mean why would you?
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Er - yes. Unless you always look for an up to date model. My last once cost £1200 cash. Unfortunately it's ended up costing another 400 quid for now as I took this out of the bank as a part payment, then hid it somewhere in the house for safekeeping and can't find it! 😗
 
Wizzerboy said:
Is that in the same way that you'd never by a house?
Why would you ?
You sound more than happy to throw away money on things that you'll never ending up owning🤷‍♂️
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A house is an asset and so I can kind of see some point in owning one. Though if I can borrow at 2% and earn 10% on my capital, the. I’d have to be an idiot not to do so.

Car Finance is cheap and convenient....
 
Mark_GT said:
Er - yes. Unless you always look for an up to date model. My last once cost £1200 cash. Unfortunately it's ended up costing another 400 quid for now as I took this out of the bank as a part payment, then hid it somewhere in the house for safekeeping and can't find it! 😗
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Crikey... I’ve had more expensive underwear..
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Why did you lose your accent?
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you just end up pronouncing things differently to be understood. My brother first noticed my accent changed after i lived in south africa for a couple of years, id already lived in Yorkshire and london before then. if i have a prolonged spell back in blackpool then i tend to pick up bits of it again. its not a concious thing. I was in blackpool for about three months last year, and when i got back home my other half said i was sounding more like my brother.
 
I lived and worked in London for 19 years. All my peers called me scummy, short for northern scum. Mainly dirty yids. Heady days 👍
 
I think we all probably believe in meritocracy, but until the system is changed - and one day hopefully it will be -it is natural for parents do do what is best for their child to prepare them for life. I suspect most of us are hard-wired that way.

If money was not a governing factor how many would pass up the opportunity of sending their kids to the very best school available?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In fairness, I own mine and my wife’s cars, but only because I’ve essentially made the choice to keep them for a prolonged period.

Car Finance is a very convenient way to deal with something that is an expenditure rather than an asset. If you change your car every three to four years, then owning cars is an absolute pain in the arse.

Half the time you end up paying less for a more or less new car than people do for a banger.
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Not really, about 200 quid a month for three years for a generic hatchback or similar that you still need to pay to get serviced.

I think the other half's Honda was a couple of grand about eight years ago, still never fails and flies through every MOT, tyres and exhaust and the odd electrical gremlin is all really, servicing is dirt cheap, it popped a top hose off once in the Lakes, two minute job with a tie wrap and lobbed a new clip on when we got home. Probably need to flush the gearbox at some point soon as it gets up to 200k. Is now worth more than she paid for it looking at Ebay.
 
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Good read and agree class system is difficult to define but it exists
A lit to do with materialism - although people I know who have more materially out if my group are teo who went into construction after leaving school and not those who went into higher education.

Personally snobbery really irritates me and is more prevalent in England than in say the US,Australia or Europe.

One thing I cannot understand is the deferential working class,doff your cap,know your place shite

I consider myself working class as that was how I grew up and was the culture I absorbed apart from the aforementioned deference
 
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